Crap Throwing Monkey

What a...surprise... Didn't I ask you last night if you had any idea why the timing of the NYT's story was what it was? You probably don't remember after being dazzled by my incredible pool "skills"...

Was that his point? I took his point to be, and answered in kind, more of the "Western democracy ain't for everyone" nature rather than the "Neo-cons are tilting at windmills" nature. Not that your point isn't equally valid...I also think, which should be clear from my previous posts, that this idea of "exporting democracy" is on its face bull sh--, since you cannot by definition force on someone the right to self-determination. I also think it's a much less interesting discussion, being as it is somewhat partisan in nature. I'd much rather discuss whether and how democracy can succeed - or fail - in Iraq without having to worry about a "Bush sucks" postscript. 200-odd years is more like it. And it's interesting that people still want to interpret "significant shift to the left" in a Cold War fashion...

Tecnhically, if they had foreknowledge, they're complicit. Ditto the New York Times, who from what I understand sat on the story for a year.

In other words, Congress kept a secret?

Which, personally, I have no problem with. I also don't necessarily see that as a precedent for democracy in Iraq. The repeated failure (or quasi-failure, or periodic abandonment and re-adoption) of democracy in Pakistan is probably the best precedent for Iraqi democracy out there.

So they kept quiet until the NYT broke the story? Isn't that a tacit acceptance of the administration's actions?

Before long they'll ban football in stadiums because it's violent. Personally, I think they SHOULD ban alcohol at football games in RWS. It might keep the offensive line from blocking like a bunch of drunken idiots...

I slipped on some ice about eight years ago and wrenched my shoulder something fierce, and it's recently degenerated to the point where I had many of the same symptoms you describe. I was afraid in ignoring it I'd damaged the rotator cuff and it had degenerated with time...but it turned out it was just bursitis and arthritis that was cleared up with a cortisone shot and some PT. But I don't want to sound like an optimist. It's not a certaintiy, but the betting odds are that you have some major damage. And the problem for you is that the only way you're going to find out is to see a doctor, which means you either wait a month or shell out the cash now. But you're not going to find out by asking a bunch of schmucks on a football message board.

I don't know...but my initial reaction is to doubt that motivation, as it would tend to support evolutionary theory over Lysenkoism. But then, Ol' Grandpa Joe was never really a model of rationality and consistency anyway...

Which is absolute bull. There is NO WAY the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary committees weren't aware of this.

And even post-Revolution, loyalty to the states tended to take precedence to loyalty to the Union. But even so, I'd tend to discount that in reference to Iraq, for the simple reason that the socio-political nature of Iraq right now is probably closer to Revolutionary War America (defining it as ending with the acceptance and implementation of the Constitution), rather than the later post-Revolutionary period (call it from the Louisiana Purchase to Fort Sumter.) And lest anyone think, despite my disclaimers, that I'm saying that a democratic Iraq will succeed because the US did in the 1780's...the states' first attempt at federal government - the Articles of Confederation - failed pretty thoroughly. The success of the democratic experiment wasn't even a foregone conclusion here; why should it be in Iraq?

Only in New Jersey would a double stabbing be labelled "rowdy behavior".

One that's not on there is BB&T. And the ONLY way to get an operator through BB&T's IVR is: when it asks you to enter your account number or SSN, hit '0' thirty-six times. The designers of BB&T's IVR ought to be shot.

Oooh. That hurt. Particularly coming from someone who has no idea how I look. You really are pretty damned stupid, you know.

Actually, most people came over here not to escape prosecution but to make money, and typically swore their loyalty to their colony up to and through the American Revolution. Very, very, very few people swore loyalty any sort of greater ideal; that idea pretty much evolved with the Union, and not coincidentally evolved faster in the northern states than the south. I was about to add that they benefited from a common background in European post-Renissaince liberalism and a common religion...but even that's not really true, as post-Reformation Christianity was just as bitterly divided as Islam is between Sunni and Shi'a now. And as I said, I don't intend my example to indicate that democracy in Iraq WILL succeed...merely that precedent indicates that it CAN succeed regardless of divided religions and ethnic loyalties. It can also fail because of those divided loyalties. Though in my opinion, if democracy in Iraq fails for any reason, it'll be because the Islamic world has never really accepted the idea of a separate secular government independent of religion: the founding fathers of the US had the benefits of the Renaissance and Reformation that weakened the hold of the Vatican on European governments and practically introduced the concept of secular government into western thought. Iraq has no such history, and there's no real reason to believe that even your average Iraqi, Sunni or Shi'a, will accept the authority of a secular government over the Word of Allah. If democracy in Iraq fails - and I believe it will - it'll be largely because it was a western brand of secular democracy that was forced down their throats. If you REALLY want democracy to succeed in an Islamic country, it either has to be of the traditional Afghan tribal type, or has to have in its roots some new-found Islamic philosophy that allows for a uniquely Islamic brand of democracy (for example, some idea that becomes widely accepted that the Will of Allah can be expressed through the will of his subjects via majority vote).

Thank you, by the way, for taking one of the rare useful and productive discussions on this board and lowering it with your typical cesspool musings.

That's just good stuff..."Stalin's half-man, half-ape super-warriors".

Maybe. If democracy is suitable for ANY country, it's probably Iraq, as they have a reasonably long history of literacy and education for the region. I think the real problem is that democracy isn't suitable for ANYONE if it's forced down their throats like we're doing there...since it's then, in effect, undemocratic. I don't think, though, that tribal loyalties or religious or ethnic differences necessarily preclude democracy. There's certainly ample history in the US alone of people having loyalties that were arguably tribal in nature, and aside from that little bit of nastiness in the early 1860s American democracy has largely flourished. Of course, that historical precedent, involving loyalties that were both artificial and very young, is no guarantee either.

Maybe you could clear it up for VABills then. In return, he might even help you out with that whole "Is sound faster than light in space?" question you were having problems with.

Right. We couldn't even get a clear agreement on what distinguishes public property from private.

Actually, if management decides that "Fire Donahoe" is inappropriate, then it's covered under "deemed by management to be...inappropriate". That's the real key here: it's not what IS inappropriate, it's what management DECIDES is inappropriate. Their opinion is the only one that counts. And no, it's not right...but it is what ticket buyers agree to when they purchase their ticket.

Why don't you explain to me again how sound travels faster than light in space? I could use a good laugh...

In support of which, I submit that which follows his "bad luck" statement: "Unfortunately we have not finished games as strong as we should have, and that has nothing to do with halftime adjustments. " This moron can't be gone soon enough.

Shut up, Frodo.

Actually, I think she's laughing at my comments, not yours.