BillsFanForever19
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42 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:
There will be game ready CBs at 25 and rounds 2/3
25, yes. Even if we have to settle on a Kyler Gordon, Kaiir Elam, or Daxton Hill (if Beane is okay with a Safety/Nickel CB projecting to Outside CB in the Pros). Rounds 2 and 3? I don't think so unless we move up from 57. Gordon, Elam, Hill, McCreary, and Woolen are all gone by then in most Mock simulations I've done.
Could someone overachieve? Of course. But I'm not throwing Martin Emerson or Cam Taylor-Britt out there to start, alongside one of these leftovers in FA, and Dane Jackson and feeling good about it.
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3 hours ago, Vickveto said:
How is it a huge reach he is mocked in the first round in most peoples drafts these days.
I'd say it's closer to "some" than "most". And I don't think I've ever seen one from a major publication that has him taken at 25 or higher. He may sneak into Round 1 if there's a run on WR's and someone really likes him. But he's at best the 6th ranked WR on the vast majority of Draft boards. And even then, it's a matter of preference between him, Jahan Dotson, and George Pickens, with many putting one or both of them above him.
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6 hours ago, NewEra said:
I think we’ll be fine with Dane + a vet + a 2nd-3rd rd pick. If they take a cb in round one, I just hope that it’s Booth or Hill. Gordon or McDuffie….I’m ok with but not enamored with.
I’ve never been against a corner….I just think we need more elite playmakers and really like some of our options @ 25. @ 57 we’ll be stuck with midgets (Austin or Robinson) or average joes like Metchie or tolbert.
The same goes for Corner's and I honestly believe the drop off in who you can get at Corner between Round 1 or Round 2 is worse than WR.
My hope is that Alec Pierce is available at 57.
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17 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:
Underperformed expectations? He was a 7th round pick
Underperformed expectations following how he looked in spot work during his Rookie season. People thought he was a lock to take over at CB2. He was unable to win the competition and didn't look as good as he did in Year 1 when called upon in Year 2.
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2 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:
Did you read the Buffalo Rumblings article - they put him as back at the end of the Pre-season. Not starting practice, but that would be his optimal return date.
The article states "White was injured at the end of November, so even an optimistic return timeline puts him at the end of the preseason".
What this article fails to take into account, is (for whatever reason) he waited over two weeks before doing the surgery on 12/14. So you need to add that time to that.
And you're reading in between the lines. "Return" does not specifically mean immediately playing games. Return can easily refer to return to practicing with the team. Which is much more likely.
If you think that a.) They're going to rush this and risk re-injury or b.) He's going to immediately hit the field at 100% potential and taking 100% snaps - you're not being realistic. And again, even if they did do this, that would put him returning Week 3 or 4.
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37 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:
Ike is coming off an Achilles tear. He is the one guy that I am sure will not be available to start the season.
The expectations with Ike is week 10 or so before he is ready - Achilles tears are brutal.
Tre’ - the talk and expectations are he is ahead of schedule and may be ready to start the year or at most misses a game or 2. The Bills based upon normal injury management will most likely limit Tre’ some especially in training camp, but ACL tears are injuries NFL/College players get over and return to normal.
No one has come out and said Tre is "ahead of schedule". You have an incredibly optimistic view on this. I HOPE he is ahead of schedule. But again, no one has said that. Just that he is "on schedule" -
As the article states, an ACL is a 9-12 month injury. He had his surgery on 12/14/21. 9 months would bring us to 9/14. And that is the soonest he can start PRACTICING. That doesn't mean the second those 9 months are up, they're just going to throw him on the field.
Also, 9 months is the soonest doctors recommend. Generally, they recommend an entire year. Studies have shown pushing recovery time puts an athlete at a much greater risk of a second ACL injury -
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2325967120985636
Your prognosis of him doing work in Training Camp and starting Week 1 is incorrect. The best case scenario is we have somewhere around Week 4-6 Worst case scenario we are without him for the majority of the regular season.
As for Ike's Achilles - there has been advances in rehabilitation for Achilles that have shortened recovery time over the years. From an article about Ike found here -
https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2021/12/28/22855008/buffalo-bills-g-ike-boettgers-achilles-injury
QuoteReturn-to-play rates do vary but levels as high as 78 percent have been reported within the NFL according to studies. The average amount of time takes 8.9 months with some returns as quickly as 5.5 months. We are seeing that in real-time with Los Angeles Rams running back Cam Akers, recently activated to the active roster.
Due to more aggressive rehab, there have been advances that have shaved the return to play in the NFL down to six to eight months. Improvement in performance following the injury has been observed, suggesting that this isn’t as much of a career-ender as it was a decade or two before. Return-to-play rates are north of 80 percent, according to The Athletic on a profile of the Indianapolis Colts’ management of the injuries.
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27 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:
You may be aware there are six additional rounds.
And what happens if Saffold (32), Bates (never started more than 4 games) or Morse lose weeks, or months? The current depth is not comforting.Ike Boettger was retained. He started 10 games for us last season (7 the year before) and was performing better than Feliciano. He's coming off injury, but is expected to be ready to start the season. Greg Mancz started 4 games last season for Miami. Cody Ford should be given a Camp with a superior OLine coach than he's ever had, given the investment we made in him. Also, David Quessenberry, who was signed to be one of our Swing Tackles, also has the ability to play Guard.
Offensive Line has been addressed HEAVILY this offseason already in signing SIX lineman and vastly upgrading our Coaching. If you want to Draft some more depth or insurance Round 3 or beyond, that's fine. But you don't spend your 1st Round pick on depth or insurance. Not with the holes we have this season.
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13 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:
There’s a good chance that Zion is rated much higher than whatever CBs are on the board.
We're set at Guard this season. Yes, Saffold is signed to a 1 year deal, but that doesn't mean they're already looking to replace him next season before even seeing how he plays here. He could perform at a high level and then look to extend him.
Bates is signed to a long term contract at decent money for a Starter but a lot for a reserve. He was signed to start in Chicago. Beane wouldn't have matched that deal if he planned on him being a reserve. He'd have let him go and signed a cheaper alternative.
If we're spending our 1st on a guy that won't start until next season, there's a myriad of positions we could take outside of Guard. Even if Corner doesn't play out well, there could still be a WR that would get more playing time than a Guard would this season.
After signing or retaining 4 different Guards this offseason, using a 1st on Guard as well seems a little much for me.
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On 4/23/2022 at 2:45 PM, SCBills said:
I wouldn’t say CB, because Tre will be back.
Tre, Dane and Taron is a pretty solid trio and while someone like Booth (if available) might take it to another level, it seems the staff is high on Dane, and for good reason.
Probably RB. Not saying we should draft one at 25, but Breece Hall’s potential dwarfs anyone we have on the roster.
Tre is coming off an ACL injury. He won't start the season and may or may not return to top form immediately. Dane Jackson lost the CB2 competition to Levi Wallace last season and underperformed expectations. Taron Johnson is a Nickel Corner.
We're heading into the Draft starting the season with Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis on the outside with Practice Squad players for depth and having not signed any CB in Free Agency to replace Levi Wallace. Those that are left on the market at this point are on the wrong side of 30, have injury issues, and/or have declined in play.
Outside Cornerback is a HUGE glaring issue.
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2 hours ago, NewEra said:
We had the number 1 pass defense in the league even after Tre went out while having Dane and Levi as our starters. We got beat by a cheat code in Hill and a terrible coaching decision. Some of us realize that we don’t have to have 5 potential pro bowlers in the secondary. Our safety’s each make 10M- Tre makes 17M- we have the 2nd highest paid slot corner in the league. We’ve invested plenty on D. While our franchises best players ever has Spencer Brown, ryan Bates and Rodger Saffold pass blocking for him. But Cb2…..we need to invest all of our best assets into the D….not our franchises best player ever.
We were able to maintain things well when we played the Patriots twice, the Jets, the Panthers, and the Falcons down that stretch. We played two teams of substance with Levi and Dane at CB. The Buccaneers, who passed for 363 yards on our Secondary and the Chiefs who passed for 378 yards.
We no longer have Levi Wallace. Tre White is coming off an ACL, unlikely to start the season, and not a guarantee to return to form immediately when he does. We're looking at starting the season with Dane Jackson (a guy with a 58.5 PFF score who was expected to be CB2, but couldn't beat out Levi in Training Camp) and Cam Lewis as our Starters. We have a gaping hole at a Starting position (two to start the season). We need to have better production from our CB's than we had last season if we want to beat contenders.
The Offensive Line has been addressed with people brought in to be Starters. If you think we signed Pro Bowl Guard Rodger Saffold to 6.25 million to backup, you're kidding yourself. Likewise if you think we would have matched a 4 year 17 million dollar (9 million guaranteed) deal to start in Chicago, just to put him on the bench here, you're kidding yourself. We wouldn't have matched it and just signed a cheaper reserve if that were the plan.
We've signed or retained six Offensive Lineman this offseason, as well as upgrading the coaching in Kromer. I'm sorry you disagree with the players that were brought in. But the Starting Offensive Line is set this season.
You want to get some more depth and development for next season on Day 2 or 3, that's fine. But it's absolutely ridiculous to replace guys who don't need replacing and just throw scraps at a position that is a massive red flag right now. If the well is dry at CB when we pick at 25 and a Lineman is on the board that is sticking out like a sore thumb (and I'm not talking a Zion Johnson or a Kenyon Green), then maybe. Otherwise, no way.
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Yeah, let's hand out another 25-30 million a year to a WR AND give up a 1st Round pick and more. That sounds wise.
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Had character issues going into the Draft and the team that drafted him in Round 1 is looking to move on from him after just 1 season?
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
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33 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:
Well he is a former Panther. And played for John Butler in Houston.
I prefer Kyle Fuller if we are talking vet players.
You mean this Kyle Fuller? https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/10/22/after-high-profile-signing-broncos-have-benched-kyle-fuller/
Again, if we want to sign one of these guys as some extra help with Tre out to start the season and as depth alongside a 1st or 2nd Round CB - that's fine.
But I can't wrap my head around fans (not you specifically bc idk if you're of this mind or not) that are advocating not prioritizing CB in Free Agency by signing one of these leftovers late and also not prioritizing drafting one higher than Round 3.
Especially with how last season ended and with Tre returning from an ACL injury, where we don't know if he'll be the same guy this year and most likely won't start the season.
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16 minutes ago, r henderson said:
Like other aging veterans, durability is a bit of a concern. He's missed 16 games over the last two years and has only played a full season's worth of games once.
He only started 7 games this past season and 7 games in 2020. He's considered injury prone, will be 31 when the season starts, and has only started a full season one time in his entire career. This is why he's still available. Bringing him on as depth alongside a top CB in Round 1 or 2 of the Draft is fine. But he's not a player you sign and count on as a full time starter, or replacement to Levi Wallace.
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It's a little annoying that the person who decided to make this thread has been so lackadaisical about updating it. Like if you're not going to stay on top of it, at least a week at a time, maybe let someone else make the post?
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3 hours ago, Warcodered said:
Actually it's 2 on 43 returns or 1 on 24 returns, which would be more like 4%
And you have to take into account how he came to be a Buffalo Bill. Claimed off of Waivers by the Broncos who let him go after he fumbled SIX returns in his rookie season. He fumbled two more times between Denver and Buffalo the following season. He wasn't used on returns again until last season. So those fumbles he had weren't an anomaly.
Hopefully we draft someone who can provide more and be safer with the ball than either Stevenson or McKenzie.
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21 hours ago, NewEra said:
Everyone has warts. Even 1st round prospects.
Gee, you don't say? There's no such thing as a perfect prospect. But the best traits are found higher in the Draft. That's why they're selected there.
The issues I was referring to refer to decline and injury problems with guys in their 30's, a lot of which haven't started a full season in two years. What they bring to the table at this point is well known.
Most of the top CB's in the NFL were drafted in Round 1. Could we miss taking a CB Round 1? Of course. But the success rate is much higher. We could miss. Or we could also draft the next Tre White and line him up alongside Tre White. Most of these FA's are unsigned for a reason.
21 hours ago, NewEra said:Please show us how you came up with this math. Based on what? Your amateur opinion of the draft prospects?
The panthers didn’t have ANY good corners after losing Norman. We have white. He hit on his first corner selected. We only have to hit on the 1st one we draft, just like he did that year with Carolina. It’s a COMPLETELY different situation. But carry on with false narratives.
the only thing we know for sure: they’ve always showed disregard for cb2. ALWAYS.
Geesh. Why so angry, bud?
Maybe I could have worded it better as I wasn't trying to imply their fall from grace was all on the CB's. But I'm sure passing on Xavien Howard for Vernon Butler didn't help matters.
And yes, they have shown disregard to CB2. Where did that get us against KC? Tre went down and we were screwed. I think it would be absolute insanity for them not to learn from that. Especially where we're at as a team now and the type of teams we have to face to make the Super Bowl.
Yes, we have Tre. We have Tre returning from an ACL injury - most likely not to begin the season. I sincerely hope he returns to form immediately, but that's not a given.
Obviously if the board doesn't fall right, I'm not advocating we reach if there's someone sticking out on the board at another position we could use help in. But I vehemently disagree, especially with Tre's injury, that signing one of these leftover CB's and drafting a mid-tier prospect at Round 3 or later is the right way to go.
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So far this offseason, Brandon Beane has signed or retained Rodger Saffold, Ryan Bates, Ike Boettger, David Quessenberry, Greg Mancz, and Bobby Hart as well as upgrading the Offensive Line coaching vacancy with Aaron Kromer. Definitely seems as though Offensive Line was a focal point in Free Agency.
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5 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:
Lots for me to disagree with:
I would be more comfortable with a veteran CB than a rookie.
I thought Dane Jackson performed well and could be the answer for CB2.
There is still FA CB help available.
And yes while there is some risk in going with a vet CB and a mid round selection I am hoping the FO is willing to take that risk if it means taking the WR they see as the BPA at the time of the 1st round pick.
Annnnddddd there it is! I was just about to ask you what position are you focused on that has you devaluing starting CB so much and completely disregarding the warts of all remaining CB's in the FA pool that I posted.
Don't get me wrong, if Jameson Williams and/or Garrett Wilson are on the board and Andrew Booth and Trent McDuffie are gone - then I'd hope they'd take a WR Round 1 and try and move up from Round 2 to get their CB.
But the odds of landing a quality, comparable WR at 57 is MUCH higher than it is we can land a 1st Round comparable CB at 57.
I'd also point out that when Beane was in Carolina, they were an almost identical position. Coming off an NFC Championship, they were in just as bad of a situation at CB going into the Draft. They passed on CB in Round 1, taking CB's in Round 2 and 3. One was a hit, one was a miss, and they went from a Super Bowl team to 6-10 the following year.
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If Kaiir Elam were still on the board at 45 and we went WR Round 1 - I see no way that we wouldn't have tried to move up.
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Geez. This isn't even the first eye opening thing I've seen regarding him and women in the past week. Hopefully he gets it together, stays off the suspension list, and focuses all his energy on Football going forward.
https://www.marca.com/en/nfl/buffalo-bills/2022/04/14/625868a622601ddf438b45eb.html
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1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:
Plenty is: Haden/Fuller/Buoye/Callahan/Harris/Rhodes
Tre didn't play against the Chiefs
Maybe the answer is Tre and Dane, with a short term vet CB, and groom another CB.
Half of those guys you quoted I addressed serious concerns with in the very post you quoted. And they didn't even involve age.
As for the other 3 - Chris Harris played 9 games in 2020 and started 11 in 2021, he's considered injury prone.
A.J. Bouye has played a total of 17 games over the past two seasons. Starting only 14 in 2 years.
Xavier Rhodes may be the safest bet, but last season he allowed a 62% catch rate when targeted. Ranking 51st amongst CBs.
None of these guys are guys you should feel comfortable starting. That's why they haven't been signed by any of the 32 teams. At this point, they're depth role players.
And you said it - we didn't have Tre down the stretch last season. And it proved why, especially in the position we're in, you can't place such little emphasis as you're implying on the other starting CB position. Tre goes down and we're screwed. As for Dane Jackson, we had him last season. He did not perform well and could not beat out Levi Wallace. He's not the answer at CB2.
We need to try and get someone who has the potential to, at the very least, be an upgrade from Levi. At most someone who can come in and be able to handle CB1, if something were to happen to Tre. We've let that opportunity pass us by in FA.
Taking a mid round CB like Emerson or Taylor-Britt and signing one of these guys, while keeping our fingers crossed that Tre doesn't take a step back returning from injury is very risky. Especially when we probably won't have Tre to start the season.
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What are your expectations for the rookie Beane drafts in the 1st round this year?
in The Stadium Wall
Posted · Edited by BillsFanForever19
Ed Oliver didn't have the ideal measurables for Beane and McDermott either. But they took him anyways. Because talent sometimes trump's measurements. McDuffie didn't allow a TD in his last two seasons at Washington, where he surely lined up against 6 foot tall capable D1 WR's. He also had a 38.5" vertical jump at his Pro Day, which would have ranked near the top at the Combine. This makes up for some of his arm length.
Yes, I would Draft McDuffie at 25 in a heartbeat. I would also feel comfortable taking Gordon or Elam there as well. Although I will admit that if the choice is Elam or Gordon and there's someone at another position that is sticking out like a sore thumb, they should probably take them over an Elam or Gordon.
Tre White is on a 9-12 month recovery plan from his surgery he had done on 12/14. I don't see them rushing his recovery and risking re-injury by pushing him back sooner than 9 months out. And there's no saying that when he does hit the field, he's going to be 100% of what he was right off the bat, or will take 100% of the snaps immediately.
And I agree, a move up from the Round 2 is not out of the question. That's why I mentioned it. And in my opinion, if they do decide to go elsewhere in Round 1 without Booth, McDuffie, or Hill on the board - we must move up from 57 to ensure we get a safer bet than what we'd find in Round 3 or risking that one of the Top 9 CB's will still be on the board at 57.