Ray

So you're blaming him for the Bills not winning 30-0 instead of 23-0......got it!!

Don't forget the 23-0 Redskins blowout where he was so bad......oh wait, the Bills won that game sorry to blow your theory.

By no means is Fitz the reason we lost this game. Seriously? What are the Cowboys 10/11 on 3rd downs? The Bills would be in this game if they had a defense and probably have put up about 20 points. They are forced to go for it on every 4th down after the 2nd quarter b/c they can not stop anyone. The only thing to take from this game is that the defense is collapsing!!! Yes the offense is stalling but they are workable. Should we get rid of Fred too for losing fumbles now in 2 straight games?

I think you are correct giving credit to Russ Brandon as he has done a great job marketing the team. It's amazing that it took so long for them to realize from Hamilton Ontario to Rochester there are 3M+ people as potential Bills' fans. That is a very large population to draw from......so they have made a much bigger effort to court those fans outside of Buffalo. I also think some of us here do buy for fear of them leaving as that always appears to be hanging over the head of the organization real or not. But regardless, December is a horrible month climate wise and very unpredictable. Despite the folklore that we love to go to games in severe cold and wind and snow nothing could be further from the truth. If the Toronto series is going to continue I would say give them a game every December as a home game and that way hopefully the Bills only have to host one December regular season game a year.

People should be VERY grateful to Golisano for saving that franchise. He is/was not a hockey fan at all but basically bought the team as a favor/civic duty to keep the team in Buffalo. Not only that, he bought them with the intention of only selling the team to someone who would keep it in Buffalo and received many offers to sell the team at a hefty profit but those prospective owners would have moved the team. He bought and owned it to eventually sell the team to someone who loved the Sabres, and boy did that work out. He will/would be probably be a great owner as he is a great businessman and he loves baseball. Be grateful for the guy as he saved the Sabres!!

Every city is different and studies are onyl as good as their assumptions and using data on new sports stadiums in their methods from 1958-1993 I am not sure applies today. Now, I will absolutely give you the positive economic impact is never as good as they proclaim it to be but for a city like Buffalo there is no way you can say the Bills do not have a very large impact on the economic activity of the region. There are very few billion dollar businesses in Buffalo number one so where does Buffalo have a business where the employees are making millions of dollars and that tax revenue does go to the state county etc..... Also, all of the stte taxes, property taxes from everyone employed and living in those homes. If the Bills ever left (they won't but just if) you would see a big decrease in activity/spending etc...in the OP southtowns region itself. The community would really be no different than Rochester, Toledo, Akron etc.. Yes instead of using the money to go to Bills games, buy drinks and food for Bills games, have family friends over etc...that money would go elsewhere but keep in mind many people would go elsewhere b/c part of the vibrancy of a community is the activities and entertainment venues around and NFL football is the BIGGEST entertainment venue around today in the US. That in itself adds value monetarily

Amen John!! This is something I was stating as were others about reasons Dec games have difficulty selling out and a retractable roof dome would be nice in a thread about a new stadium possibly NF....we all realize the reality of money woes of the state/county etc... But I will be going to two of the three games this Dec and missing one because I will be working. But you cannot tell me if the weather was nice the games would not have more interest. This year the weather has been awesome for games. People have this misperception that the players and people love it when it is 20 and windy and snowy......they don't. Now that being said it is not a criticism of Buffalo people/fans. We do have great fans, there is just not as much of us around and we tolerate 30 and snowy a lot better than 95% of the country. But reality is reality and it is not fun sitting out in the cold and wind. I love outdoor games in Sept and Oct and this past week was great weather. But you have to start dragging a lot more people there once it gets freezing and you have to wear 8 layers of clothes to stay warm. Buffalo has great allegiance to the Bills and they mean more to the area/as much to the area as any other NFL team.....it just stinks here in December! That is why they liked having a game in Toronto in December b/c it has a dome and the Bills did not have to sell the game out in Buffalo/OP

John is correct. The December games have always been more difficult to sell out even when they were great in the 90s. This is from the folowing article: http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2011/11/08/bills-launch-blitz-to-lift-december.html?page=2 "The Bills’ December ticket push is up against a still weak economy and heavy competition for the disposable income dollar. Brandon admits those conditions are constants for the Bills organization. Still during the past decade, the team has sold out 83.25 percent of its home games compared with the 61 percent it sold out in 1990s when it was middle of a four Super Bowl run. The Orchard Park stadium seats just over 73,000. Since 2000, the team has sold out 60 percent of its December home games, although Brandon conceded some were sold out when corporate sponsors or team owner Ralph Wilson bought the few remaining tickets. For a Dec. 26 game last season against the Patriots, local restaurateur Russell Salvatore bought approximately 5,000 remaining tickets to ensure a sell out and lift the local TV blackout."

What he said!!

Ummmm...you realize he is playing against a guy in the running for NFL MVP for the 1st half of the season and there is only one ball? I think CJ is actually encouraging when he does get the ball this year he has run harder and smarter. He is a talent and will do well. I do think next time they play the Jets you may see CJ line up in the 5 wide more. A couple of times CJ was matched up on safeties and LBs and actually the one thing CJ has over FJ is that he is a better and faster WR. CJ on Jim Leonard is as big a mismatch as there is even more so than FJ on JL.

Don't we need a replacement for KW when he goes on the IR?

Three cheers and hip hip hooray cheers seem a little lame to me.....sorry! Let's all cheer for a first down....yeah! Where did I say you have to curse! At a professional sporting event all I am saying is expect some cursing...seems pretty obvious. As you state kids will hear worse on the bus. When people are passionate about something, IN GENERAL, they have more invested in it and tend to be more vocal and expressive. That tends to result in some curse words. Go to a stadium where people do not care as much.....Jacksonville/Carolina and the environments do have more kids there but the stadiums are not as raucous. Of course you can cheer without cursing. Just expect more passionate fans to curse more and that environment to be more intense (Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York, etc...).

Thanks for the link....it is nice to see unbiased reporting showing what we all know. I know the Bills were outclassed but that is 70 yards and two TDs for the Jets and a 50 yard no call for the Bills on Freddy J's no call.

It is somewhat sad to say but the party atmosphere is a big part of the experience. Unfortunately as in any event (football, concert) there are those that are drunken jerks. An NFL game for those that care is not a great place for kids. A Red Sox/Yankees game is not a good place for kids. Those other stadiums I have been to that are more family friendly are quite lame in terms of a game day experience. I did see the Bills in Carolina last year or the year before and it was a great family atmosphere but sooooooo lame in terms of an NFL game day experience. The cheers and chants reminded me of a Pop Warner/High School football game. Fans that really care, are passionate can use bad language. That does not excuse being a jerk, assaulting other people/fans but you have to expect F bombs to be hurled....especially with ridiculous pass interference penalties etc.. like Sunday.

The Bills have always had difficulty selling out the December games even when they were great. Why do you think even playoff games did not sell out. Miami play off game, the greatest comeback game in NFL history. December games ALWAYS have difficulty selling out. Why do you think the Bills griped about having three home games in December this year. They have actually been in the playoff race in the past 5 years believe it or not (not last year obviously) but even with Jauron they were 7-6 going into their last 3 games one year and did not sell out. People hate going in that type of weather as it is a miserable experience. You could have three home games in December blacked out even if they are in the playoff race. Especially if the weather is bad! Miami, Tennessee and Denver are going to be very tough sell outs even if we are in contention for the playoffs unless someone buys up a huge block of tickets. What are you talking about in terms of fans not coming in out in nice weather? The first three games were great and of course had a great turnout. Anyone will tell you it is a lot more fun in September than December if it is snowing and windy and bitter cold. It is just not fun.

PTR I agree with you. The renovation of RWS is going to be the only way to go due to money. The only way would be for someone to put up a lot of money if they thought a stadium attached to hotels and shopping etc...would be enough to draw people to the area for a profit. It is Howard Milstein (who has bought up hundreds of acres) who interestingly tried to buy the Redskins, and his lead guy in the Falls is Roger Trevino Jim Kelly's former agent...likely just coincidence. Furthermore, you are right about sitting in the cold and it does suck! Why do you think no games in December are close to being sold out? People like going when it is warm. Now in Buffalo that could be no wind, sunny and 35 and people are okay with that. But throw in 20mph winds, snow, and 20 degrees and it is miserable and you would get a lot more people willing to go if there was a cover over the stadium. But in the end too many hurdles but fun to speculate about!!

Great idea on multiple fronts. But, I would make it a retractable roof stadium. For those who said it would be 1.5B?? Seriously? This is not going to be like Jerry Jones' stadium. This would be more like Indy's stadium which was about $600M. You would be able to tap into the tourist market and it would be much easier to get the southern ontario fans. NF is the 5th biggest tourist destination in North America (all of NF--both NY and Ontario combined), so keep that in mind. You would need dome capability to generate other revenue like concerts, other sporting events, etc.... I would say keep the dome open except for horrific weather (extreme winds, extreme snow, rain...). People say this is Buffalo but NOBODY likes watching games in weather we have had in recent years. 70mph winds in the Pats game a few years ago and the Giants game a couple years ago were awful!!! Terrible experiences for everyone and it is NOT football. You could generate other income with Bills HoF, museum, other stores similar to Patriots Place but in a MUCH better environment. Pats place is in the middle of nowhere. NF would have a decent size/critical mass and immediately you would be able to compete with the Canadian side. In the end it will not happen as it is a costly venture and Ralph is not going to shell out hundreds of millions of cash for it and the taxpayers are broke. We will have to be happy with the Ralph which is a good venue most of the time and in the end it will keep the team here.

The perfect summary of this thread!!

Keep in mind anyone/group who wants to buy the Bills and move them to Toronto is in for an enormous expenditure of money. $8-900M to buy the team. Same for a stadium in Toronto given the prices of real estate, the type of stadium they would need etc... and then another 5-600M for a relocation of an existing franchise and moving it paid to the NFL. Conservatively are their groups looking to spend $2.4B on an NFL football team causing the dissolution of the CFL? There are so many obstacles to this that people need to think about. Keep in mind that interest on $2B a year is $120M alone not putting a dent on principal of $2B. Big problems for TO and actually when they did not get the Olympics it was a huge benefit to Buffalo keeping the Bills b/c they would have had a 70+K stadium sitting there unused! The team is staying in Buffalo people so please stop the defeatist attitude/talk. They are staying here.

It goes to show you everyone who said the Bills would be good and Trent Edwards/JP Losman/Drew Bledsoe/etc... would be good if only the had an OL were completely wrong and it was the QB who stunk not the OL. Well folks, this is the best experiment going. Remove the QB, who in this case is one of the best of all time, and you see how he compensates for EVERY other offensive player on the field. With PM on the field the other team changes everything they do on defnse and how aggressive they are, the offense changes to keep up with P Manning. A smart QB is so important nowadays for protection schemes, knowing what the defense is most likely to do, getting WRs in the right position. If you put T Thigpen behind our OL he would be the most sacked QB in the NFL, whereas Fitz knows what is going on and uses his smarts to compensate for some physical limitations.

State collects $20M per year on the Bills with employee salaries, taxes on Bills goods, services, etc.....Pretty good ROI with $20M per year on a $100M investment. The state wastes a lot of money...this at least they would make back. Although I believe the Bills should be responsible for some. I think that would actually be a great idea and insulate the fans from the horrible winds and make for a "cleaner" game. Regardless of what anybody says how they love the freezing weather and all that anyone who has been at games with the horrible winds the past few years will tell you it was a terrible experience. We don't need a dome but if the stadium can dampen the winds a bit it makes everyone's game experience better.

Agree.....that is reasonable and people who are reasonable would agree to a plan like that. Bills museum? Buffalo Sports HOF, those types of things could possibly be added to produce a small revenue stream. $100M to renovate or a new $600M stadium....hmmmmmmmm

This thread should be traded. Ridiculous idea unless a 1st and 2nd round pick. CJ will be a great back and player. Playing behind a legit NFL MVP candidate does not make you a bad player.

Simon, I agree with you and the point is 100% correct. Regardless of whether or not he is/was a #1WR other teams HAVE to respect him and his speed so you have a corner and safety paying attention to him. I think most people misunderstand your point. People love stats and catches and TDs which are very important but having a guy that is respected and needs to be respected as a WR is important. It is analogous to a great DT or NT like Ted Williams. The defense here was GREAT and number one or two in the league repeatedly. He was the center of it and despite only getting a sack or two a year and maybe 30-40 tackles he was a beast and helped everyone else around him be better.....someone could say trade him as he is good for only 3 sacks and 35 tackles but they'd be missing the bigger picture. Regardless, Evans is gone, it was a dumb move and it was to save money plain and simple. You cannot make the case Donald Jones is better than Lee Evans. Now, Lee's strength's are not really a good fit for Gailey's offense and I do buy somewhat that was a reason to trade him. But Baltimore players will tell you even if he is not catching many balls he is great for their offense. You have to respect speed guys and they change the defense, we just do not have that aspect in our game now and time will tell if that matters.

Agree with PTR too. Makes too much sense to get done though. Huge tourist attraction with about 8-10M visitors a year and a good 30-40 minutes closer to over 1M residents not even touching the Toronto market (Hamilton >500k residents, St Catherines about 200k residents, not even considering all the smaller towns with 25k resident, and 80k from NF Ontario). Makes their drive from 5 minutes to 40 minutes. Buffalo region obviously still supports it and for the Rochester market it is the same amount of time from Rochester to the Falls as it is from Roch to OP. You could obviously do a lot more in terms of marketing, adding a Bills museum, make it a smaller type of Patriots place to generate some more revenue. The weather is better their too. Keep in mind they get about 30 inches less of snow a year there, winds are not as bad and even a new outdoor stadium could be built to insulate the fans a bit more from the bad condiitions. Oh well, we can always dream.....don't see it happening though.