PBF81

Many of us have connected the dots in the seasons before this. Others continue to have insisted that McD is a much better coach than he is. It always unfolds like that. The downside for the apologists is that the day of reckoning typically comes hard and unmistakeably, which is the case this season. You know that I am among the critics, but dang if I saw this coming. I figured 10-7, possibly 11-6, maybe 2nd in the division, and either a Wild-Card or Divisional Round loss to an inferior opponent with more coaching gaffs. I figured that would be enough to swing the balance of support pro/anti McD away from him. What's going on now makes that look great. People take things way too personally in the forums, pretty much any forums. Instead of merely discussing the team and agreeing to disagree, there's way too much focus on being right. Who cares. No need to slam people for being wrong, but it often happens because the people that end up being wrong hammered others for not harboring their opinions, before they were proven incorrect. If people were simply allowed to discuss the team in disagreement often, then these situations wouldn't arise. It's very likely that those fellow fans are trying to cope with all of this themselves, and in some cases continuing on the tack that they held prior to their narrative collapse, by redirecting it at others. Or their simply struggling to come to grips with the fact that what they believed was false. That's just the nature of forums. It also doesn't mean that they deserve to be slammed either though.

Unreasonable has to be defined that way. Obviously many take issue with it being unreasonable, hence the length of the thread. But you started your thread by saying this ... Spin it any way that you want to, but you're assault is on a very good and likely majority of our fellow fanbase. It is what it is. Why go there? Why misplace your anger (or irritation or whatever you choose to call it in your play of semantics) onto fellow Bills fans? Otherwise, your first two paragraphs launch into the fans. In the third you boost and promote yourself in contrast to those that you slam thereby attempting to place yourself in a morally superior position. That always goes well here. LOL In the fourth you say that you're not calling out critical fans, but many of those are the ones stating that they're only going to watch the games if it's convenient. So what? Why should you even care, whether they post here or not. In your last paragraph, you directly criticize any and all fans that aren't as avid as we are and don't spend as much time as we do, either independently analyzing the team as many of us here do, or otherwise posting here. Most don't have that kind of time for one or more reasons. This just in, many of the fans that sit in that stadium and have bought STs and likely even more so luxury suites, don't spend nearly as much time as we do here, with us here having it be a little bit, or a lotta bit, more than a simple pasttime, hobby, or pleasure in life. They're there at the games though, right? They pay their money, more of it than many of us here that analyze the team do even, with many of us not being in a position to buy seasons, either financially or logistically, right? Who is anyone to criticize them. As for me personally, here's what I don't get. The NFL is a business they say. So when Pegula implies that he's moving the team if doesn't get subsidies from NY State, aka the taxpayers either directly or indirectly, that's fine, and it's a business. When players say that they want their money or they'll go elsewhere, with many of 'em not even earning it here after they get it, that's fine, and it's a business. The exorbitant concession prices, parking, soon-to-be STs that cost approximately twice what they're running now, in WNY, with PSLs on top of that, it's a business. But when the team sucks, the players don't play to their contracts, the owner that insisted on getting free public monies to not relocate the team cannot wait to give his coach and GM extenstions, but blindly extends them despite a catastrophe of a season in play that he could have easily waited out, and thereby putting himself into a precarious position as such, not to mention that same head coach destroying any semblance of the pretty much the exclusive thing he's known for, that ill-defined "winning culture," all while taking a rare generational talent that we as fans only dreamed of having, and contributing to beating him into the ground mentally and emotionally, losing to a bunch of teams that aren't even nor ever were in contention for making the playoffs much less advancing in them, while nearly losing to another, we as fans are supposed to treat it as something more than a business then? It's not right to insist that everyone treat this team and their affections for it the way that you do. Many here take time out from their lives to spend 3-4 hours every Sunday, time away from kids, grandkids, other pursuits in life, perhaps making more money that they need. I know people that don't make a lot of money in life, yet they spend a good chunk of what they do earn on going to a Bills game or two during the season. Now with the team, its coach, and everything else associated with it, coming into the WNY family room, and taking a huge dump in the middle of the floor, perfect loyalty, interest, passion, and attention are expected from all fans far and wide by you and others? Does that truly sound like a rational approach to you?

One could quite easily argue that taking it out on fellow Bills fans, as if they've contributed to it or are the reason for it, and when the opposite is true, is worse than the complaint of the OP. There's no good reason for it. Once again, we have no say in what happens with the team. We can only influence it, but even then, there only en masse once the critical mass of fan and media opinion, which is related to fan opinion, reach a tipping point of sorts. Again, I don't think that most fans are upset with losing to better teams or when we show up with our A-Game and lose because our opponent brought their A-Game as well and simply beat us. That happens to all teams every season, including the best and Super Bowl winners. What most object to is our coach being handed the keys to something great, turning it to mush, routinely showing up with our B if not C-Games, starting games as if they're scrimmages only to show up in the second halves doing what should have been done all game, abandoning aspects of our game when that's what's working at the time, and taking a generational talent like Allen and turning him into a Fitzpatrick. Then, having the "audacity" to point fingers at the one(s) responsible. LOL Think of it as paying a top-notch contractor to build a home or home addition for you. But all you get is fly-by-night incomplete and shoddy work. Would the same people then argue that that person should simply be happy that they have a roof, leaky or not, to live under. LOL Apparently. And with that in mind, there also seems to be some misdirected anger by those that trusted and insisted that McD was a great coach despite cracks having been visible during his entire tenure, starting with the Peterman debacle outward, but have now been blatantly disappointed with the realization that their faith and beliefs have been misplaced. It seems that that is then inappropriately turned on fellow fans by some of them.

LOL, well yeah, when you begin a season with more than reasonable hopes and expectations for winning a Super Bowl, with winning the division all but a given, then lose to three of the worst teams in the league, the Jets, Broncos, and Pats, while nearly losing to two more, all while watching your offensive production plummet with one of the league's top QBs under center, and subsequently find yourself facing the Jets in a must-win game for 2nd place in the division as well as for mathematically keeping already slim playoff hopes alive, ... that'll contribute heavily to the critical nature of the fans. Don't ya think? Should that be considered unreasonable?

It was glue. That explains things.

Why am I not more convinced after reading that. LOL

Agreed It's not so much that we're bad, it's those facts as to why. The presence of Allen in particular. As Bills fans we're a passionate bunch. LOL Agree here as well. The next several games will be telling. McD will never be able to say he wasn't given a fair chance should it not work out well.

Ya know, I thought we'd beat the Broncos easily. And the Pats. Who knows what comes out of the tunnel for us.

Ya have to love threads that are about posters and not the team.

LOL Have a great Thanksgiving! Go Bills!

How do you know what I said then? It may have been nothing but complimentary of you. Your loss. Don't you have something better to do than to antagonize fellow Bills fans on a Friday night?

Take away the common games between us and them, here's what's left: Miami: Raiders @ Jets @ Commanders @ Ravens Bills: @ Philly @ KC @ Chargers New England No comparison. If that were switched I'd give us some hope, of making the playoffs via division win that is. Not in advancing past the Divisional Round for the second time in McD's 7 seasons.

Ya know, I was wondering whether anyone would make that comment. Am I the only one that often turns those idiotic game announcers off, as in mute the game, just to be able to watch the game in peace while drawing my own conclusions. 95%, if not more, of what they say is obvious. The officials tell you want the penalties are. Years ago, I think it was John Madden commentating, he blathered on about how that was one of the strengths of the team. A little later on in the game something happened, or didn't, and he completely contradicted himself and made the comment about how the exact same thing was a weakness and something that they were trying to correct. Anyway, if it's a deep throw to [insert name of receiver] for a reception, I think that we can pretty much deterimine that for ourselves. LOL The officials signal what the penalties are. You don't even need sound for that.

I'm pretty sure if we lose while scoring fewer than 20 points on fewer than 300 yards and say 15 1st-Downs, that it'll be a fair assumption that we haven't turned it around that McD some some unbeknownst reason coached a great game. When we light things up, nudge me awake. Most people watching this team avidly for the past several seasons have seen more than enough to understand the steady-state issues that McDimwit is terminally limited by. I'm not sure that watching further evidence of it is required. But hey, for some people, they can't see things coming until it's past them. I mean look at all the people still arguing that McD isn't that bad of a coach. The number one thing cited by those people as to his primary product, is some ill-defined "winning culture" that typically is associated with any team that, well, wins. That culture no longer exists. Why not? Because he, the one credited for it, has immolated it. So what's the notion that he's a good coach based on now? Some still can't see it. If McD never got Allen we wouldn't even be having this discussion now and McD would be the DC back in Carolina. BTW, you do realize that there are easier and far less time-consuming ways to watch a game after it's been played, right? I haven't been to a live game this season. I no longer live in the region. The gameday traffic related to that whole construction mess has turned me off to going to games until the new stadium is up. What I understand is that if there's some kind of indication that we have in fact turned a corner, then it'll be obvious. That it won't be shrouded in a 10 point loss to a siht team with a QB that will be fortunate to be a starter in the NFL starting next season, with excuses being made for a head coach that's being hammered in the media for coaching idiocy. Call me nuts.

What's a Schnike? -------------------- Something that very few talk about when discussing McD, or even McBeane in this mix, is that in the 7 season that McD's had, 6 for Beane, ... 7 and 6, not 3 and 2, McD's been treating this team as if it's his own private personal live FFL Defense. They trade up to get Allen, then spend almost no resources and zero 1st-Round picks on OTs or even OL-men in general, they continually sign a slew of 1-2 year cheap JAG OL journeymen, presumably panning for gold hoping to find a nugget in the even-a-stopped-clock-is-right-twice-a-day mode, coming up empty. Via the draft, until Torrence, seven seasons in, Brown was a late-3rd-rounder and Cody Ford an early 2nd was a bust. For WRs, in 6 Beane drafts, not one WR on days 1 or 2. Other than Davis in the late 4th, not where you'd typically find a #2 WR, Shakir in the early 5th Round was the highest drafted WR. No shortage of DEs, DTs, and DBs though. McD's living in the '90s.

What's a Schnike?

Completely agree. Now that things have disintegrated under McD, Pegula needs to sign him up for yet another 7 years. He did it once, he can do it again! Just BILL-IEVE!!!

Well, then as grown men getting paid multi-millions, multi-tens-of-millions in Allen's case, they'll simply have to learn to set their emotions aside and be more pragmatic and find some methodologies and approaches that are consistently effective. I mean honestly, if they haven't figured that out by now ... Not criticizing you, it's a good and valid thought, but honestly, that can't be it.

Brady was in five and won 3 Super Bowls well before he was 37. Here's the thing, he never had top WR talent with the exception of Moss. He had Gronk, but he only played with Moss for two seasons, went to the SB in one of them. Other than that he turned average WRs into something special. Allen, Burrow, and Mahomes are very different QBs as well. My point about Brady was that his coaches didn't ruin him. I'm not sure what the point you're making here is in relation to that. ?? If it's that Brady wasn't perfect, no doubt. But Brady also rarely if ever strung below-average games back to back much less in a string. Yeah, that's a great point.

OK, so suppose someone, let's say myself to keep it simple, doesn't watch the game and we end up losing 24-13. It's not reasonable for me to assume that it was either a poorly coached and/or poorly played/executed game, ... likely both? That's essentially what you're saying here. I know the roster, the coaching staff, talent level, past coaching gaffs, what the primary issues have been, but for some reason all of that's going to change on a dime? That's your implication here. Sorry, but no sale on that one. Now, if we emerge 41-16 victors, then perhaps you'll have a point, at least temporarily. But until that occurs ...

Then again, I'm told all that these teams care about anymore is corporate dollars, and corporations buy the expensive suites etc. and farm them out. Honestly though, if that's the case, then expecting loyalty from fans ... SMH

In fairness to him, if the team's not going to support him, I'd be the first one to encourage him to leave. That's Pegula's problem then. If Pegula places loyalty and "culture" crap ahead of performance, oh well, that's on him. He can't expect the fans to chum up to his new and improved twice-the-prices STs and PSLs though. Good luck with that. The fact that in seven seasons McBeane still tinker with the D instead of focusing all but exclusively on the offense really makes a statement there.

LOL That's why I gave more credit to McDaniels. Notice that Brady's career really surged once McDaniel started being the OC. But Brady developed under Weiss. The point being that I don't credit Belichick for that, at all. Weiss was a disaster as a HC at ND.

You're preaching to the choir here. As you've heard me opine many times, McD's treated this team as his own FFL defensive unit. He may have been a better hire before we got Allen. But the moment that Allen arrived, he simply wasn't a proper fit. It's cost us. The interesting thing is that the direction that this team is going in now was predictable. I didn't expect for it to be as bad as it now is at this point of the season, but the notion that fan and media opinion would swing away from McD this season had a good reason to be suspected would occur, and it has. If Pegula wants to salvage anything out of Allen, he'd better make a switch following the season. On spotrac it shows that Allen's contract has an out after the '25 season, so after two more seasons. I suspect that that's an out either for him or for both parties. Either way, while I never dreamed that he'd exercise that, now I have my doubts if things don't change at the top. And perhaps I'm off on his having the ability to get out, maybe it's just for the team, but there's an "Out" in it.

Great for you! Football's not my life. I have a family and interests. So yeah, rather than dumping an entire Sunday afternoon to watch a bunch of garbage football, I'll quite happily do something that I consider to be more important with my time thank you! I root for a winner too. Too bad that's not what McD's putting forth on the field here. Maybe take that part of it up with him. Funny how football's a business, but the moment that the fans treat it like a business they get the business from people such as yourself. Have a great Thanksgiving, ... seriously!!!