PBF81

Interesting take!

What was your BAC when you posted that. 🧐🤨

Agree, ... not that it helps. LOL

Well, in another unpopular take, McD keeps providing enough rope to hang himself with. You've heard me say a bunch of times that IMO the sentiment on him is going to swing something seriously during or after this season. It is what it is and now's not necessarily the time to talk about that. But while it's nice that our defense, which always seems to start seasons strong, came out and [sort of] blew up a Jets' offense with a well below-average OL and a crap QB, but it's not going to work like that every week, possibly starting next week. It was the Offense that were the hopes for our season, and while the Jets' D is superb, with a better offense this season, we didn't even score the average number of points that we put up against them in our two games last season. Again, incredibly disappointing. If Rodgers end up being OK (IMO it's an achilles, but what do I know) then the Jets have to be the favorites to win the division this season at this point.

There's definitely a gap in reading defenses/coverages between Allen and the better passers in the league. He has other strengths to overcome that at times. Keep in mind, he came out of Wyoming unable to read a D. He only learned that in the NFL, which is beyond remarkable. But to your point, he's never been exceptional at it like Mahomes, Burrow, Lawrence and some others. But one would think that he'd be able to polish it up to that extent. That's the kind of stuff you can do over the summer w/o exerting yourself. Definitely not an encouraging start to the season. I'd rather have had the offense light it up in a repeat of our playoff game vs. Miami with Wilson replacing Thompson. The offense is supposed to be our strong suit this season. Disappointing start.

The lack of any creativity or adjusting for the Jets D in the 2nd Half is absolutely mystefying.

Yeah, I need sleep, have a headache now, and don't know what to think. I thought that our offense would be a lot more creative, but again, the opponent out-adjusted us at the half. I'm incredibly disappointed in our offense, Allen of course, but also the lack of creativity in the 2nd half. ... or OT with the game on the line for that matter. For me it's not so much the loss per se, but just as with the playoffs, it's how we lose. And let's face it, our D played well OK, but the Jets' OL isn't good, bottom 10 for sure. And way too many big plays by a Zach Wilson led O. I thought we'd blow them out after Rodgers went out. SMH This one's going to hurt our chances in the division, and given that it was Wilson, not Rodgers, it'll end up having been one of the worse offenses on our schedule.

Indeed, their entire offense has outplayed ours. SMH Once Rodgers went out I figured this would be a blowout.

I've asked multiple times what I've wanted, you haven't provided it. Not even just now. So let's drop it. You have your opinion and no amount of facts will get you to consider that perhaps it's a bit staunch.

I'd argue that Gunner is making strawman arguments. He's playing semantics games. I've defined just about everything I've argued. His definition of "impact" if also as vague as it gets. I've asked specific questions in light of a couple of our key disagreements, like the one that ToGoGo just answered, and he refuses to answer them. I'll pose the same question to you, how many games impact does Allen make in our W/L column on average every season? I can see why none of the McD apologists want to answer it. It's obvious. If they give an honest answer, all of a sudden McD doesn't look so good. That much is apparent. Hiding behind nonsense is just that, hiding behind nonsense.

Thank you!! I won't disagree with that. Allow me to ask, would you say that Taylor was better or worse than most of the other QBs we've had during our drought era, on averge? Of QB by QB if you wish. Otherwise, it would seem to me that if you swapped those 4 minimum Wins off of our W/L records the past four seasons you'd end up with 9-7, 7-10, 9-7, and 6-10. That'd be 31-34 and no playoff appearances overall. If that happened, what would be the perception of how good a coach McD is? LOL, oh I understand it. People come up with their opinions, and ignore any and all evidence that they may be incorrect.

Again, the context of this between Gunner and myself is the caliber of QBs that this team has had prior to Allen's arrival. I don't care what PFF says in the matter unless you want to go on record as agreeing with all of PFF's takes. You willing to do that for the sake of future discussions of this nature? Otherwise, what is your, not someone else's, acknowledgement of how many Ws Allen adds to this team over the likes of the QBs we've had in the past, or as I said, Taylor, Mac Jones since I compared BB's Pats to pre/post Brady, and in fairness to the debate in that way?

I don't think you've read the entire thread. I provided a very detailed analysis to both McD's 2017 season and Marrone's 2014 season. Very detailed. Gunner cited two games that he claims that Gilliam made a big impact on the outcome of the game. I provided data for every single play of a notable gain and all of our TDs that were in the highlight reel, and not one play ID'd as such. He provided an opinion, sans any video evidence or links, of three plays, upon which, presumably, Giliam impacted the game for a win. That's "time-stamped" evidence? It's "time-stamped" opinion to be sure. Either way, do you agree that Gilliams makes a lot impact plays all season long, while averaging 11 offensive snaps/game? We know he doesn't on Special Teams, where he took nearly 300 snaps and had 3 combined tackles. One of those solo tackles was on a 13-yard punt return against the Pats in that last game in a game that we'd already won with minutes to go. Game Impact Factor: 0 The other two were both in the Detroit game. One of which was a comb tackle on a 20-yard KR on a drive whereby Detroit Scored a TD. Game Impact Factor: 0 His solo tackle in that game was on a 41-yard PR setting the Lions up on our 35 also on a drive on which they scored a TD. Game Impact Factor: 0. So clearly he wasn't much of an impact on STs. Honestly, how anyone can possibly argue that Gilliams makes impact plays is beyond me. He's a blocker, but an expendable one. If he were our only "key injury" this season, this offense wouldn't miss a beat. It might even improve.

They are educational, for sure, but he's also not coming clean on the impact that Allen has on the perceptions of McD being a good coach either. Do you want to take a crack at it? Same question, a simple one. What is the W/L impact of Allen on this team in any given season?

Sorry, that doesn't answer the question as to what kind of an impact Allen makes in the W/L column. Try again.

Right, like my specifically detailing our illustrious "making the playoffs" season in avid detail, in support of my argument, with you providing nothing but opinion to date. Those kinds of "feelings"? Again, feel free to say how many games you believe that Allen's being at QB means to us in W/Ls? We both know why you won't. If you did, again, point it out. God knows how many times I've asked yet never to get a direct reply. Again, in the vein of "feelings," I've given you mine and presented the record of an otherwise very distinguished coach as evidence. Not sure how data and facts are "feelings," but OK. Either way, I'm [still] awaiting your response to that and have been for months.

I"m not even sure what your point is. You took issue with my stance which implied that this team would be just fine without him. Yet, what you say above seems to agree with that. I'm quite honesty not certain what your point is in all of this. Again, you took issue with my position. I've now provided evidence, and you've provided two or three plays in description but not in video that's available, three plays, and opinion otherwise. Look, he made the team, we're both rooting for us to win a Lombardi, let's simply agree to disagree on the particulars and drive on. I am eager to see your statement on the W/L impact of Allen however, for which despite all of my asking here and there for a few months all you've done is told me that it's in some "other thread," which is kinda lazy to be honest, particularly when as I said, it takes what, one, two sentences, possibly three to sum it up. Why are you hedging on that? You know mine, IMO (opinion) but based on evidence, Allen's impact to the W/L column of this team, singlehandedly, is four, possibly five games/season. In the playoffs it's just about everything. Otherwise, I'm curious how "good" you think McD would be with Orton, Mac Jones, etc. as his QB. We know how good he was with Taylor, other than for an incredibly soft schedule his offense put up fewer points than all but seven of our drought era offenses, all coached by Gailey, Jauron, Mularkey, and Williams. Other than for "backing into the playoffs" over three other better 9-7 teams, it was not good. Or better yet, how do you think that McD's Bills would be with Allen or Barkley at QB? IMO he wouldn't win more than 6 maybe 7 games over a 17 game season. But, if as you've said, we have one of the "top third" best rosters in the league apart from the QB, it should be better than that. So clearly you must think that even with Allen, Barkley, or Jones, not Taylor obviously, that we'd still be making the playoffs. IDK, since you won't say.

Got that link to your statement about the W/L impact of Allen yet? That I'd like to see. Otherwise, re: the above, the entire debate between us began upon my suggesting that Gilliam may be cut with the implication that the offense doesn't need him to succeed. You took issue with that. To that you replied this ... I then looked at one KC game's highlights and came up with this; You appear to be backtracking or we have two entirely different ideas of what it means to make an impact in a game. I don't consider a routine block that any JAG good at blocking could have made, as being some kind of impact play on that merit alone. To me "impact plays" are big 1st-down plays, sacks that end drives, not sacks after which the opponent goes down and scores anyway, batted passes, INTs on passes that aren't thrown right to the defender, huge receptions in traffic, etc. "Good blocks" that any number of good blockers without any other particular skills in this league easily could have made, including others on the team, don't seem to me to be of the "impact" variety. Look, I enjoy discussing with you, and this isn't really all that important. It's a simple disagreement. Now it seems to be that you're saying that Gilliam really doesn't offer anything special that many other players could bring if they were here. With that I'd agree with if that's your position now. In short, my opinion is that his presence on this team isn't going to significantly contribute to a win or a loss the entire season. Could I be wrong? Sure, of course, it's merley an opinion. For all we know he could have a STs return TD for a win this season. All I know is that despite playing nearly 80% of the STs snaps, he had 3 combined tackles on those nearly 300 plays and nothing otherwise to make him stand out, and that on an average of 11 offensive snaps per game last season, his biggest single season contribution ever, it's only possible that he made a mild impact and anything far from a significant one, but the key here is impacts that any other JAG that's good at blocking only, could not have made.

Can't you restate is since I don't know which "other thread," and it could take me an hour to find if, or more, if I went on that easter egg hunt? I mean what, it's a sentence, two? And you should read what I say. Two plays is not many plays. Also, I said I'd like to see those plays. Recall if you will, this discussion began with essentially my implying that the offense would be fine without Gilliam. To which you tried to get me to believe that he was a much bigger part of our offensive success and made a significant, not an occasional, impact on our offense. Sorry, but you haven't provided that evidence yet. Two plays and your opinion as such in the matter isn't what qualifies as evidence in support of that.

BTW, I'm also still awaiting your statement on the W/L impact of Allen on this team per season. You gonna provide that, or not? If not, jusy say that you won't. It's not difficult. But then I'd appreciate it if you quit taking issue with when I substantiate how it has. Again, IMO this season is going to be very revealing in terms of McD and his coaching. I don't think that by the end of the season his apologists are going to be anywhere near as supportive. But we'll see. I'm having to hope that our offense carries the team this season. Which it may, so there is legitimate hope.

Please, put me on ignore. Thanks I think you've said that before. I know you've said that you weren't going to read any of my posts again. I wish you didn't.

That's not what you said, you said that he makes many impact plays, which is what got that debate going. Otherwise, fine, but the above in an opinion without direct evidence to the contrary. And again, just about every player makes comparable contributions. We can easily say the same about our 4th and 5th WRs, "they create matchup difficulties with [insert whichever D or alignment, etc.]" You told me, while prior to watching our game that you were busy and would provide those plays later on. You haven't done that yet. Two games. You went through one but didn't identify video wise any plays. I'll try to find the two that you mentioned, but for which no video was provided or linked to, but I find it difficult to believe, and per our original disagreement, that some other player on the team couldn't have filled that role in those two instances. And honestly, two plays is far from many, which again, aids my original point, not yours, that Gilliam does not play a significant role on the team such that he needs to be kept around in favor of any average blocking FB. And BTW, I forgot to mention, yes, I realize that you didn't say that Klein was "good," but you did say that he'd make the team for some related reason as I recall.

Well, first of all, I'm sorry that all discussion has to be of the rah-rah we're a shoe-in win type, which is your implication here. All I did in my first post was to explain what role I thought that Kincaid would be most beneficial in. You took issue with it. That's not me dumping on Kincaid or the team, it's me saying what I think needs to happen if we're to win, as I implied. What's dumping is your subsequent responses to me. Think otherwise as you are. I enjoy discussing the team, not dealing with anyone's emotional insecurities. I also didn't read every post you made to everyone in this thread, to assume that I did is ridiculous and you wouldn't put up with that angle from me in a second. So quit with the hypocritical takes. Either way, you win. I'm finished dealing with your bickering takes on this. You're right, Kincaid deserves 8 targets every game as a rookie, he's a shoe-in Hall of Famer, I expect him to finish second on the team in targets, which he'll do if he averages 8, and if that doesn't happen, what, presumably it'll be coaching negligence. How's that? Line up OK? I sure hope so. Either way, we're done here.

Great, provide the points in the game, like I do when I'm trying to make a point, where his "impact play" occurs. I'll look at those. You simply implying that he made impacts because he was "on the field" at the time doesn't cut it. I gave you the list of all the huges plays, i.e. most of our yards and all of our TDs, and pointed out that he made no impact whatsoever on those, I'd appreciate it if you'd provide the ones that he did in support of your argument. I'll gladly look at those. And let's revisit, you said many impact plays in those two games. Two plays is far from many. Any given player typically makes a couple of impact plays every bunch of games. Heck, there are players that win games for teams once a season that don't even play in the NFL the season after and outward.

To what extent? That's where you haven't provided an inkling of a clue. i.e., how many games per average on a season do we win because he is our QB, and apart from coaching? I'll provide a perspective from which to operate. Once Brady hit his stride in NE, his third season let's say, which is fair, Belichick's Pats have averaged 12.5 wins/season, and that includes Brady playing into his 40s there. Since that time Belichick with a relatively average QB and Newton, and one that arguably has been better than most that we've had during our drought era, has average over 4 wins/season fewer in three seasons. I've always said that a very good coach will regularly get 8-10 wins with an average or perhaps even slightely below-average QB. That's my opinion to be fair, but it is based upon factual data. Get the context before chiming in please.