PBF81

Maybe the chocolates on their pillows were tainted.

He's also got years of incredibly mediocre defensive team performance as well. The Jets game was hardly garbage stats, and to your point, I cited a comp between this and last season, the same could be said for last season. Feel free to try to explain that away, but again, it's early, we'll see. Remember last season, after five or six games everyone had us going to and winning the Super Bowl.

LOL, hey, mistakes happen. People acting like they never make 'em is worse.

I'm tellin' ya! FINALLY some chemistry!!! Offense is going to set records this season.

Too many Labatt Blues when you made the comment.

Which raises another point, gotta "go to the well" in a season rich with WRing talent. Already expressed, simply reiterating. That's the hallmark of a good GM, or one of 'em, forecast your needs in advance, and take advantage of position-rich drafts.

Yeah, thanks, I confused Higgins with one of the other four in not paying attention. I originally posted all their draft spots. The point stands though as you noted. That's a very sound strategy. I would concur although I haven't given much thought to the post-Diggs era til now. It's a bit sobering. As always, none of us have any control over it, LOL, we'll see how it shakes out and how for the best. With any luck, this season's fast start with be sustained and we'll finally win that elusive prize. Where do you get the alignment data?

I'd pump the brakes a little bit on McD being better. He may very well turn out to be, but so far through 4 games, contrasted with the first four games of last season, we've allowed 55 points (58 last season), but over 100 more yards-per-game. That's a lot and on the season over 1,700 yards. The difference last season between the 1st and 32nd total yardage rankings was 1,564 yards. Our opponents have been similar as were or losses in those sets of four games, both tight games vs. divisional opponents. Also, let's not forget, McD's defense is new and teams will increasingly have more video to draw from in planning. We'll know more by the bye. We've also had a tendency over the past few seasons to start out much stronger than we finish and things have turned to level out after the first bunch of games. We'll see whether that pattern holds or not.

Ahh, you're right, thx for the correction. Hobert then. Still LOL and a leap from him to Allen. 🙂

No doubt, but those haven't been the arguments against him.

We'll see what they do. Neither you nor I nor Firechans etc. have any say in the matter. LOL

LOL, but he does move the chains. We just proved that. Otherwise, I think we've said all that we can here. It's beyond clear that you don't care for Davis. Let's see how this season goes and go from there. GO BILLS!!! Two things. First, you're conflating two separate discussions. One is regarding how good Davis is. The other is how much he's worth. My point is that the longer we wait, the more expensive he becomes. So either extent him or plan on letting him walk. Secondly, drafting a WR is a little more difficult than simply saying you're going to do it. Given Beane's track record with WRs, Davis being the best, ironically, I'm not convinced that happens. Also, as pointed out, Waddle and Higgins were top-10 picks. We won't be picking until the low 20s. Otherwise it's a GM issue.

You also seem to dismiss the fact that Davis has more TDs than all of them however and that his rate of logging 1st-Downs and TDs on his catches is significantly better than those peers. You also seem to dismiss the fact that Davis has more TDs than all of them however and that his rate of logging 1st-Downs and TDs on his catches is significantly better than those peers. And again, he was a 4th round pick while the others were all high 1sts, early 2nd, and 3rd. The point being that the solution, for a marginal gain, is to either overpay via free-agency or consume a 1st-round pick likely, and either with risks.

Your premise is somewhat valid, ... your first line there. I would strongly argue that we had our best receiving weapons in '20, IMO this season is notably better if Kincaid is what everyone thinks he is. The difference is that Allen leaned on Beasley much more than he has on any other short-yardage WR, largely because Beasley had the talent of being able to find the soft spots in coverage. Kincaid is supposed to be doing that now. Davis was a rookie that season, which explains why he might be viewed as WR4. Brown was little more than a known role-player, and let's be honest, with a skillset not much different than Davis', with the primary difference being that Brown was 5'11"/180 to Davis' 6'2"/210. Davis was second among WRs, even in that rookie season, for snap counts at 73%. Diggs was 89%, Beasley 63%, Brown 42%, McKenzie 25%. That puts Davis as the "other wide WR" with Beasley in the slot. Getting back to your premise, see my post above, but this all seems to fit the understanding of McBeane, namely that Josh is a strong-armed QB and needs a solid target downfield that is capable of making those big-plays that he tries to make. Again, that could also be why Davis doesn't post bigger numbers than he has, because think about it, everyone complains that Allen goes deep instead of taking what the D gives us, well great, but that means of Allen's average of 36 attempts/game over the past three seasons, how many are going to be deep. If half of those are deeper balls, largely to Davis more often, is that really what helps the team the most? At the same time, when Davis goes deep, opposing Ss and DBs need to respect that or Allen will go deep.

Here's the thing about that, we've struggled in the playoffs, but our struggles have least of all involved Davis. Our biggest issues come playoff time are ... Coaching Decisions & Play-Calling Poor Defense In the three games that ended our seasons over the past three postseasons, we've allowed in regulation, 38, 36, and 27, an average of just under 34 PPG. In contrast, last season Cincy's 6th-ranked defense allowed 17 and 10 in their two playoff games prior to the one with us. In '21, KC and their 8th ranked D allowed 21 and 24 in their other two playoff games. In '20, KC and their 10th ranked D allowed 17 in their other playoff game other than allowing 31 to Brady's Bucs in the SB. Again, we averaged 34 PA in our losses, all three games more than any of those with a mere one exception, the Chiefs vs. Brady in the SB, and even there, only by 4 points over our best in losses. Davis or a "better #2 WR" is not at the top of our list of needs as to why we're not advancing further in the playoffs.

Well, OK, I can see the reason there anyway, but I would disagree that Higgins, Godwin, or Waddle are notably better. They're definitely different types of WRs, which jarred something else loose in terms of this discussion. It seems that those dissatisfied with Davis are more dissatisfied with the type of WR that he is in a "#2 role," which I discount. To me the "role" doesn't matter, it's a title, it's the accomplishments that matter. But if that's the case, we have different roles of WRs on the team, then why doesn't Dorsey utilize them more? Kincaid, Harty, Sherfield, Shakir? Sounds like a Dorsey/utilization issue then. I mean Beane & McD picked him in the draft. They knew what kind of WR he was. It was apparent. Otherwise, Waddle was a 6th overall pick. Godwin a 3rd-rounder. Higgins the 1st pick in round 2, 33rd overall. Smith a 10th overall pick. Davis in his first three seasons, at the ages of 21, 22, and 23, posted 20 TDs and 71 1st-Downs on 118 catches, averaging 16.8 YPR, and for a TD/1D conversion percentage of 77%. Waddle, a 6th overall pick and 2nd WR off the board, in his first two seasons at the ages of 23 & 24, posted 14 TDs and 105 1st-Downs on 179 catches, averaging 13.2 YPR, and for a TD/1D conversion percentage of 66%. Higgins in his first three seasons, also at the ages of 21, 22, and 23, posted 19 TDs and 133 1st-Downs on 215 catches, averaging 14.1 YPR, and for a TD/1D conversion percentage of 71%. Godwin, in his last three seasons with Brady throwing at the ages of 24, 25, and 26, posted 15 TDs and 136 1st-Downs on 267 catches, averaging 11.1 YPR, and for a TD/1D conversion percentage of 57%. Smith, a 10th overall pick and 3rd WR off the board after Waddle, in his first three seasons at the ages of 23, 24, and 25, posted 14 TDs and 95 1st-Downs on 181 catches, averaging 13.2 YPR, and for a TD/1D conversion percentage of 60%. Either way, keep in mind that those are the best in the league for second-best WRs, and it's far from a slam-dunk here. Again, everyone's saying that Davis sucks, but he has more TDs over the past three seasons than all of them. He is a different WR type than the rest, but that's perhaps why he does well. Allen's strong suit is deep throws. Are we to assume that yet another slotty-type WR or one like Diggs in essence, is a better fit here? Who would go deep then like Davis does. (rhetorical) And BTW, I'm far from suggesting that it's perfect here, I've been hard on the staff for not fully utilizing the shorter higher-percentage passing game, more than anyone maybe, but therein also lies the possibility that the staff is thinking "deep ball" more often than it should as well, thereby creating what many see as an issue here. I definitely don't discount that, but having said that, it then becomes a coaching issue, not a WR issue. IMO this team's offense has more than almost all other teams at this point, and all the receiving talent that any decent QB should need to produce a passing offense that would rival a franchise best. Otherwise, the solution would seem to be drafting a WR in the top-half of round 1, or paying through the nose for a marginal increase in performance at best. That doesn't appear to be an optimal use of cap/draft resources to me, particularly considering the whiffs of players in round 1. i.e., nothing's guaranteed, and the fable of the dog looking into the water and barking at the reflection because the other dog has a bigger bone (keep the wise-cracks to yourself :D) and then loses his own bone as if falls into the water. I'll try one last analogy, ... in the same way that Davis won't be running many short outs or OTM short routes, so too, other WRs don't have his size and athletic ability to matchup downfield on the deeper throws. So it really is a be careful what you wish for, you may get it kinda scenario. I think we've killed this topic. Good last bout though. He's dead Jim!

OK, but how high of a bar is it? I already posted the teams that put up dual 1,000-yard WRs and it was hardly impressive. I'll post it again. So which of the "#2" WRs below does everyone believe he should be mimicking if he's "any good?" I'll take 900/10 or so over any second-best on that entire list any day of the week. A 1st-Down is a 1st-Down and a TD is a TD, I don't care if Davis walks downfield on his hands with no pants on and catches the ball in his buttcheeks. It appears to me that his detractors are obsessed with the way that he does it rather than simply with the results. OK, and the question is open to all, but which of the "second-best" WRs below would we be happier with? ... and why? ... and every single one had decent QBs throwing the ball to them. Burrow, Tua, Hurts, Smith, and Brady.

That's a fantastic question. Many are saying he's not worth $15M or whatever. IMO the entire league is overpaid for playing a sport, that has significant amounts of its business expenses largely covered by taxpayers in many cases. But not to digress and that aside ... I look at last season's WR Free-Agent Contracts on Spotrac. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2023/all/all/ Click on "POS" to sort by WR. OBJ, who IMO is washed up, got $15M for one season. I'm not sure we need more 1-2 year contracts either. I'd like to see some continuity here. Woods at 31 got over $15M for two years. Smith-Shuster got over $25M for three years Hopkins, who's washed up as a #1 at 31 got over $26M for two years. Lazard and Jakobi Meyers each got $11M/season for 4 and 3 years respectively. Davis where he is at 24 is better than any of them. What would everyone be thinking if any of those guys were on the team instead of Davis now. And look at who we've gotten over the past four seasons; Brown, McKenzie, and who else. Meanwhile, many went bonkers over Andre Roberts and Robert Foster as if either of them ever had a realistic chance to do better than what Davis is now. Which brings up a point, when you consistently draft players that are the youngest in the draft, it only makes sense to plan on keeping them into their primes, not letting them walk just before their primes. That makes little if any sense. Davis will be at the forefront of his prime going into his next contract. Based on the above it seems to me that signing Davis to a 4-year $40M contract prior to now would have been a good deal. But hey, what do I know. That's a Beane problem. At this point the price-tag is going up by the week however. And BTW, sort on the '24 WR free agents, sort on Market Value. I'm not seeing anyone that's going to make people here happy given the seeming price tags.

And if I had a nickel for the incessant waffling here and season long and week to week schizophrenia that goes on here ... BTW, it appears that you're on an island here.

Again, this isn't even a serioud discussion anymore, it's simply you throwing up all the crap that you can for the sole purpose of defending an indefensible pre-determined position. I've also ignored your ridiculous and false premises, but since you want facts, let's address your "facts" given that you're throwing them up against mine. To start, Davis was never on pace for 1,300+ yards thru 4 games last season. He was inactive in game 2 for starters. So if you count only games 1, 3, and 4 otherwise, he had 138 Yards and 1 TD. How that translates to 1,300+ yards you'll have to explain to everyone. But, seeing what you presumably meant, I'll factor in that 171 yard 2 TD game in week 5. That's just under a third of the season, injured BTW, and 309 yards and 3 TDs. About what he has now and still not a pace for 1,300+. Either way, you're being entirely disingenuous here and there's no sense in continuing this discussion if this is all you're going to do. The point that I made, clearly, was how the entire team overachieved early on last season, and I cited two player examples. Which brings up another relevant point, and something that concerns me. The past two seasons we've approached the first part of the season as if going 6-0 was the championship. Then things leveled off, and ulimately we choked in the playoffs. It should be more than a bit concerning that we may slow down again, particularly defensively speaking. IMO, again my opinion, the offense will only continue to gel and get better, with Davis being a huge part of that on that note. But I do expect the defense to taper off significantly as we play better offenses. Everyone's cheering McD at how much better he is than Frazier, and while I am reserving judgment until more games have been played, he's allowed over 100 total yards per game through the first four games than Frazier did, and a comparable number of points. 55 this season, 58 last. Negligible there. But the over 400 more total yards allowed is hardly negligible. That's nearly 2,000 yards for the season extrapolated out. We'd better hope that changes or it could be problematic. It's not as if we've played top-10 offenses, except for Miami, who put up 393 total on us. Anyway, you've ignored just about every direct question I've asked on this topic and you clearly have an agenda re: Davis. So be it. Time, this season, will bear out what is the case. Dismiss 3 TDs, and more 1st-Downs than anyone but Diggs and Cook if you want to, but you're being ridiculous to suggest that it's not incredibly instrumental in our scoring in games, and therefore winning them. And honestly, if that's your standard, then every other player we have besides Diggs and Cook must absolutely suck moose oysters. Every player has limitations with few exceptions, and those players end up in the Hall of Fame. That doesn't alter his playoff performances or what and how he's contributed. I'd say that they're using him pretty optimally. What, he's gonna play slot or something? What, short wheel-routes? He's a deep WR. That's what he's used for. Getting on/about 1,000 yards and 10+/- TDs from a WR like that is anything but chump change. In that role, if he had 10 targets I'd be quite concerned about our entire offensive approach. But he "stretches the field" to cite a cliche. I appreciate your what I see as relinquishing on the argument somewhat. Let's see how the season plays out and render further conclusions at that time.

That wasn't the question and that's not what you said. Diggs makes $24M per year and cost us a 1st-Round pick and another. Davis was a 4th-Round pick that makes less than $1M/season, which is ridiculous for what he does. This isn't a serious two-way discussion at this point. You're simply looking for random things to defend a preexisting position.

Seriously? And Diggs was on pace for 1,800 yards and 17 TDs Rousseau was on pace for 17 sacks, 21 TFLs, and 25 QBHits. The entire world has is penciled in for a Lombardi.

LMAO Go ahead and name the other players, game by game, besides Allen, that made an impact or were consistent in the playoffs during those seasons. Win or Lose. I dare ya. Start with Diggs. Maybe then picture will clear up.

Sure, laugh now, but the Claven lineage goes back through all of the most influential ruling families in history.

He makes big plays to keep us in games, keep drives that result in scoring going, and again, if he continues the pace he's on, and hits 12 TDs, which I can envision, then that would be the largest percentage of TDs thrown by Allen other than possibly to Diggs, who's career high was 11 last season, on 60% more targets and over twice the receptions. How much that's worth, again, I cannot say. That depends upon Allen, Dorsey, and what the team thinks. Again however, for anyone to even approach suggesting that it's irrelevant is ludicrous speed. A bunch of things have stopped us in January, Davis hasn't been one of 'em. Defense has. Coaching has. Lack of a running game has. Poor OL has leaving Allen scrambling for his life has. Davis was largely instrumental in three of our four postseason wins under McD while he's been here, and one of those games was the win that pushed us to our fourth win in Davis' rookie season. He has more postseason TDs than any player on the team. The only trend that we're trying to buc in the playoffs is poor D and incredibly questionable coaching.