PBF81

Interesting points. Again, I simply posted this for discussion, without adding any comment or context. But there is some context built in. I'll hit those points in a moment. But I would throw this back into your lap so to speak, for that added contrast, how about citing the WR2s above that meet the expectations that you set forth above, in that contrast to Davis? To your points on that, how many of those #2 WRs listed do not "disappear for many of the games?" But also, how many games has Davis "disappeared from" in contrast/context. If you're using that as an argument to support a point, presumably you've done at least a little research/analysis there, right? Include it with your statement. How do your next two bullet points compare to the other #2s? I would argue your fourth point at least somewhat. I mean here's every catch from the Jax game. I don't see one where Davis "broke off his route." Also, there is a little versatility there in routes run. Again, contradicting the narrative. But either way, who has a problem with those plays and catches. Not me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axzo6SP7hSE Here's his Miami TD, also doesn't qualify that way; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs6LV_GzLgE Here's the Washington TD, no broken route or extended play; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bufyoTi6xzI Here's one, but it's a heckuva play by Davis; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAn_Nk4Nps8 As to "moving the chains," to me that means 1st-Downs. How do you define it? Seriously asking here. But he ranks 10th among those on the list in 1st-Downs. Where does he need to be in order to be considered "moving the chains?" 10th is in the top-10. What, 1st? 2nd? Here's the thing, I've noticed that some of the people that are hard on Davis, also defend both Beane and McD. This is their "Process," whatever that is. The situation is what they have produced. So any dissatisfaction in it, without the accompanying criticism of them, is misplaced. Is it not?

Of course he is. LOL

If they can get this offense to run on all cylinders then it won't matter. It gets old in deja vu form, hearing every season how we don't have the weapons, signing a bunch, saying that we finally do, then deja vu. ... for what now, four years. Could be the people entrusted with putting it all together. Just sayin'. AKA Inconsistent The fault for that is obvious, many simply cannot bring themselves to see it.

And coming off of a game where we barely and with luck beat the bottom team in the regular season.

Davis' rankings in the cats.

The question should be, ... Is McD getting the most from this team/roster that's possible, particularly in the playoffs?

What do you mean? As to your original post, the first thing that hit me is that in 2020 Allen, suprisingly and in no small way, took the NFL by storm. In 2019 he wasn't even an average passer. Then he stepped into the world of the elite the following season. So my thinking is that being the enigma that he is to a large degree, that advantage played to our favor when playing teams for the first time and for a season or two on the newness of Allen being "superman." Not being sure which teams were the ones where we scored on our opening drives this and last season, I would be curious as to which teams we did that against this and last season, to see whether perhaps they were largely teams from other conferences and not KC, Cincy, or other division winners that have been on our schedule annually now. In essence, teams that we hadn't played before with Allen as our QB. Again though, at least some of that, the extent to which can be argued, can be thrown at the coaching staff. We need one of those TV preview announcers ... Previously on TSW ...

Speaking for myself, he's getting a pass for any issues that have existed in the offense whatsoever. In support of that, there haven't been many times, none that I recall off-hand, that he's been held accountable by fans or media for any significant issues related to the offense. The schtick is always "he's a defensive-minded coach" and the rest has befallen either Dorsey, Daboll, or Allen. ... or Davis I suppose, the evil one. LOL Mostly joking on that last one. No team in the history of the NFL has been perfect, ever. To start, "perfection" is your choice of words. I didn't use it. Also, I'm assuming that this is still in the context of the string here, namely re: the offense at present, so I'll refer solely to the offense per above, and I'm also assuming that you're still referring to my comments on McD, not Dorsey. So in that vein, I'll ask you, do you think that the team's offense is being optimized? Does the word innovative come to mind at all when you think of our offense? How about resourceful? How do you think it would be performing, relative to other teams that would have comparable talent if Allen went down? To me those are the questions that we, and frankly, the coaching staff from McD on down, shouild be asking. Instead, and once again, speaking for myself, it seems that the team is largely resting on the abilities of Allen to carry the offense, and by that I mean more than is typically asked from a QB, even the best ones. Top 5? With Allen? To start, I'll defer to the above that I just answered for this. I'm also slightly confused. Or is it ... what? We had the #1 and #2 ranked defenses in the league the past two seasons, but then gave up points in the playoffs equating to the 32nd (DFL) ranking. So regular season rankings don't always mean very much. But you've been competitive before, so allow me to ask; when you reach a plateau in a competitive element, even not in sports but something else, do you tell yourself, that's good, I'm satisfied with this status, even if you know that it could be better? Again, per above, do you think that McD's team is doing the best that it can with the offensive talent that we have? Has it peaked with it? Take KC for example, I see Reid/Mahomes doing everything that he can with a cast of WRs after Kelce that at best are a bunch of JAGs. IMO they're overachieving with the crap that they call a WR corps over there. Are we overachieving with what we have? I thought that the entire team and it's functioning was the responsibility of the head coach. Am I off? In your view, does McD bear any responsibility at all for the play of the offense? If so, to what extent or with what limitations? Let's suppose for the sake of argument that it were the offense holding the team back from winning it all, but for the reason that we were not getting the most from the offensive roster that we have. Whose lap would you drop that in ultimately, having had two different OCs that is?

I have to think that they're on top of that.

That's a good point. And our other Miami game is on the road too. Who knows, maybe that'll be the one to determine the division.

Easy there chief! I was referring to generally speaking, I (truly) didn't mean to point you out. A bunch of people have said that kinda thing.

I have none. I know he's a talking head for one of the sports networks. Don't know which one. I don't listen to any of that stuff. I used to listen to some stuff on GR years ago but stopped that too. There's way too much content today for more than a small fraction of it to be original or worth listening to or viewing. I prefer to do my own research, work, etc. I'm so out of touch with sports media. Half the time I'll even turn the volume down on games and listen on GR even though the sound is significantly out of sync with the video. Why are you asking?

You're preaching to the choir. But criticizing the one that conducts our drafts is frowned upon here. LOL In the playoffs it's been the problem. 13-Seconds comes to mind. For sure an offense that put up 36 regulation points wasn't the problem.

I would not disagree, particularly with that bolded part. I'll add that I have no idea why McD continues to get a pass for the offensive issues, essentially by virtue and implication that he's a "defensive minded coach." He needs to be a complete head coach or go do something else. I expressed elsewhere in the last 24 that it's nice that he's brought us out of the drought doldrums, but how long is he going to live on that reputation without delivering the next level. It's run its course. It's a rhetorical question, but he's the head coach, there ought to be some responsibility associated with the whole enchilada, not just half of it. The last time I checked, that was the responsibility of head coach.

My theory: Because they've never had three that are above-average starters ever since Lorax retired. Again, just a theory. But look at our roster for LBs from 2020 - 2022 and ask yourself which three would you start? That's why they run this goofy defense that no one else runs. I get that it's a passing league and we need to be able to stop the pass, but you cannot do that at the expense of the run. Agreed. And seriously, this "they only had two big plays, one for a TD and the other setting one up, otherwise they didn't do anything" thing, ... really? LOL

Firechans is right. I got into many an argument suggesting that Sherfield anyway wouldn't do much. He's on pace for 14 catches for a little over 100 yards and 0 TDs. There was more excitement for Harty, but again, he's right when he says that everyone considered it an upgrade. FWIW From where I sit, if you can clearly explain to everyone that's reading what the offense is trying to do with the talent that they have, I think everyone would be grateful if you'd share that.

I agree, Bills 41 Giants 9. ... oh wait ...

How 'bout them Cowboys!

Not possible with the "culture" we've created here. (extreme sarcasm intended)

Are you hedging on their behalf? To start, all I did was put up some factual info. I haven't opined in this thread and will try not to. I haven't interpreted anything in it. But to your point, they really haven't done much to bring in the type of talent that would be better than Davis, apart from sign Diggs, right? Or do you view the two 5th, three 6ths, and 7th picks that they used on WRs apart from Davis to be indicative that they were not satisfied with the situation? Whom they discussed bringing in here isn't really material. What is material is the situation that they have created, no? We talk about it here, but not one person here had anything to do with that, right. Are you saying that they haven't been satisfied? If not, why not do you think? What would the problem have been then in that case? Let's not forget, Beane's six seasons in and McD is seven seasons in, we're well past the "getting his own guys in here" thing. That ship sailed several seasons ago. What's here in port is their cargo. Right? Or do you view it differently? More relevantly I would probably ask which of the receivers on that list would you prefer here? How much do you think a WR like that would cost to bring in? And what difference would it make?

Isn't that the reasoning behind trading up to draft Kincaid?

I started a thread with this for the stats, so that they wouldn't get lost in the thread. Given all of the discussion re: Davis and whether or not he's a #2 WR, his limitations, etc., while discussing this with another poster I mentioned that I'd put together a listing of all of the current #2 WRs in the league as it stood after 6 weeks. Granted, given injuries etc. there may be a few oddities, and in some cases I had to determine which was the #2 going by depth charts and data. That's generally not a good thing for that team. I tried not to count the Slot WRs, but if they were unmistakeably the #2 I may have used it. If you want to find issues you will. I also didn't do a ton of research besides simply looking at each team's stats. I didn't count injured WRs. Also, in I believe two cases, the TE was the #1 WR, so the #2 WR was really the best WR on the team. KC and the Giants have question marks because none of their WRs stand out. KC's leading WR for example, after Kelce, is on pace for 694 Yards and 6 TDs. The Giants' leading WR is on pace for 669 Yards and 0 TDs. So none of those are really germane to the discussion when their best isn't even as good as our second and in KC's case having nothing to do with the QB. Feel free to include any of their WRs in the discussion however. The point of this is not to get everyone worked up on their position on Davis, rather to encourage discussion as to what the expectations for a #2 WR really are, which can vary with the team. I know we'd all love to have the modern equivalent of Rice, Moss, and Gonzalez in our WR/TE ranks, and Sanders or Payton in our backfield, and the HOGS of the Skins as our OL, but we also need to be realistic. I also don't want to take a position out-of-the-gate here. I do think that discussing coaching or Beane is fair game since it stands to reason that this is what they wanted, and they even stated that they like Gabe as a #2 during the offseason and strongly believed in him. So there would seem to be a strong relationship between the situation and McBeane. Anyway, here's the data, look it over and ask yourself the tough questions. I sorted it by the obvious Receiving Yards, and put Davis' rankings in each category at the top for purposes of comparison. I had to reduce the size of the spreadsheet to get it on. Hopefully it can be expanded.

They were a playoff team last season like we were a playoff team in 2017. Easy schedule, new coaches that had the advantage of the early part of the season with their newness of schemes, etc. Then a late season skid that went into the following season. In short, they benefitted from circumstances last season like we did. That's the only way a team gets in with a 9-7 or worse record. Let's also not forget that Cincy game with the pass from Dalton to Boyd to put us in. Of the five other 9-7 teams that didn't make the playoffs that season we were easily the worst. Same as last season, the only other team with a winning record in the NFC that didn't make the playoffs, was Detroit, which was arguably a better team than the Giants, especially at the end of the season. The Giants won only two of their last 8 games whereas Detroit started off 1-6 but finished 8-2. Daboll's been 4-11 since a hot start last season. His offenses are right where they've always been except when he had Allen on fire for two seasons, on or about DFL.

Who knows what's going on, but to suggest that coaching isn't primarily responsible or that McD should be insulated from that from a coaching perspective is irresponsible.

Six weeks into the season, here's my concern du jour; Regarding our offense is that last season our lowest scoring games were 10, 17, 19, and 20. After that we scored 23+ in every game. This season, only six games in, we've already all but matched our low scores: 14, 16, 20. The fact that our offense has sputtered like that up front is concerning as was 0 points through 3 Quarters yesterday. This week @ New England will provide more info. There isn't a gimme game on the schedule at this point given our play of the past two weeks. Agreed. Not sure what's going on. I also just looked at our aggregate numbers this season to last, with my belief that there's no reason for us to be wore in any offensive category from last season. Last season we had more passing TDs, 17 to 13, fewer INTs, 4 v. 6, more passing yards, more 1st-Downs, fewer rushing yards but a noticeably better YPC avg. per above, and more points by 3. Not quite sure what that means at this point other than that the coaches are underachieving with this crew.