Einstein

Hopefully our incredible training facility (it really is top notch) can fix some of the injury issues he's had. Injury History 2019 - Harris missed 2 games with a hamstring injury. 2020 - Harris suffered a hamstring injury and missed 3 games (IR). 2021 - Harris suffered a hamstring injury in Week five’s game vs. Washington and missed 3 games. 2022 - Harris injured toe and missed 12 games (IR).

Yeah I think most of us saying those things had something else in mind than a guy who had 2 receptions last season and has 4 total TD's in 4 years in the NFL. Our version of "playmaker" is a bit different than this.

Nailed it. This is what cracks me up the most. The same posters who will crap on PFF, will also post or read articles by Joe Buscaglia where breaks down the film. Buscaglia’s resume involves working at a radio station and then as a sports writer. That’s it. Somehow they will take his word, over analysts at PFF who have been in the NFL or college football, and watch every snap of every game of every team.

He has no quotations and no source. He is speaking from a position of ignorance due to his preconceived notions of PFF that he can not let go. His notion is that PFF grades are subjective, but so is ALL grades. Before PFF, when an O-line coach graded a linemen after a week of training camp practice, that grade was subjective to the o-line coach. It also becomes less subjective as it passes through several tiers of analysts reviewing it. At PFF, a player can not be graded until it goes through 3 tiers of people. And some of those tiers include former college/NFL players and coaches. He ignores all of this. As you mentioned, coaches have come around on PFF. Everyone from Shanahan to Reich to even McDermott have talked about how valuable PFF is. Of course Cheese will just say “but they use it for the data not the grades”. Except he ignores that the data is what drives the grade. And he has 0 proof that NFL teams don’t use the grade. He even brought up an old article about a player alleging that agents/players pay PFF to change grades. He thought that was a “gotcha” but he didn’t realize it was actually a “gotcha” for him. Because agents/players wouldn’t spend thousands of dollars to change grades to impress the average fan. They would do it to impress teams who would be paying them millions of dollars. Therefore, IF it is true (and I doubt it), then it just furthers the point that teams use PFF player grades. Its an anti-PFF agenda and no matter what evidence you give him, he won’t believe it. Better to give it up and allow him to live in his reality.

No i’m done with it because you have a very limited knowledge of PFF, have never been there, do not know anyone who has worked there, and do not know how teams use it. You speak from a position of ignorance. Also it’s boring for other people on the forum to see two people engaging in page-long arguments. And yes, Reid has always struggled with OL evaluation.

AMEN!

Maybe thats what Beane is banking on too, but oofta... I was not impressed at all with Bernard.

Did you.... like what you saw from Bernard?

Not just the SB loss, where he was missing both tackles who were bad enough that neither one of them ever started another game in the NFL. It's also his complete misjudgment on Orlando Brown and his overall inability to put a quality offensive line in his offense for close to a decade before the current iteration. For more than half of Reid's tenure in KC, his line averaged of 22nd in the league in adj sack rate. The reason he made that horrible trade for Brown is because he was chasing linemen to try to improve his horrible line. When Mahomes got there, the line suddenly had better numbers (but were not actually better) because he is so masterful at moving around the pocket and escaping the pocket. In no universe is Reid outstanding OL evaluation. Kelechi Osemele was another terrible player that never started another game in the NFL. I agree. I'm done with the PFF stuff. .

I was surprised by Sal's comment too, but I wonder if he knows something from the Bills front office or if he is just speculating. Long can cover. He's not great at it, but he's also not horrible at it either. He is NOT Reggie Ragland who couldn't cover at all. Obviously Long is a Dolphin now but I would have loved to have him in red and blue.

Yes sir. I was just referencing a conversation I was having before the Dolphins got him (or about the time the Dolphins got him).

Sal just said on Twitter that he thinks the Bills may be targeting more of a downhill "thumper" at LB after letting Tremaine walk. If so, that is EXACTLY who Long is.

I'm not sure where Andy Reid entered this conversation but Andy has a history of signing bad offensive linemen, so that doesn't surprise me. His terrible o-line is what got Mahomes crushed in the SB a couple years ago and cost him a ring. He also traded a 1st, 3rd and 4th round pick for Orlando Brown who was a total disappointment and they just let him walk after only two seasons. Based on his history, I would guess that him drafting Creed was luck more than skill. He probably should be using PFF more.

I mentioned that article earlier in this very thread. It further proves my point about NFL teams using PFF grades. Otherwise, if teams didn’t use them, players and agents wouldn’t spend tens of thousands of dollars to change them.

What is interesting about that NFL player who said that agents pay PFF to raise grades is, if that if that actually happening, then it shows the power of PFF within NFL front offices. Because these agents/players wouldnt care what the average $12 per month fan thinks about their grade. They care about what the NFL team paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for those grades and data think about the player. The grade and the data to hand in hand. The grade is derived from the data.

The team pays for it all. The data the team gets is actually much more advanced than the data the public gets. but it all result in the same type of scoring and analysis. except for things like formations and bunch sets. PS, PFF is headquarters in Ohio. Not the UK.

Do you know someone who worked at PFF? Because I do. it is you who are confused. There are LOTS of former players or coaches work at PFF. Including Andrew Berry (former NFL player), Bruce Gradkowski (former NFL player), Mike Johnson (former NFL linemen), Steve Palazzolo (former UNH coach), Jeff Dooley (former RI coach), Mike Renner (former college linemen), Eric Eager (former coach at MU), George Chahrouri (former coach at Harvard), Ben Linsey (former college linemen), Anthony Treash (former AZ db), Andrew Erickson (former college WR), etc. There are also multiple levels of analysis. After it passing primary analysts it then goes to mid-tier level to be graded again. And then to a final tier to be graded again and make sure the first 2 levels got it right. The former players and coaches are usually on level 2 and 3. You're probably thinking of data collectors (they are low level grunts). I'm not criticizing you. I'm just having a discussion. If you've taken it personally, don't. You're the one who has told me that the Bills made a decision and they know more, therefore I shouldn't question it. When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Feel free to have the last word. I won't respond. .

No one is saying its the definitive source. It's just another tool. But you want to pretend like the tool is total garbage - except its not. If we limited opinions on a forum to people who knew more than football coaches then there would be 0 threads and 0 posts. Including from you. We are all giving our opinion based on what we see. And sometimes the pro's (who know more) get it wrong. See 2000 to 2017. It's funny. This is EXACTLY the argument you're making about my criticism's on the Bills. They know more and therefore I shouldn't criticism them.

Trusting an organization does not mean you like every decision they make. I trust my wife but I do not agree with every decision she makes. I trust my kids but I do not agree with every decision they make. You say NFL teams use the data and analytics but not the players grades. Where do you think the player grades are derived from!? The data and analytics! You do not trust PFF because you find anecdotal evidence that their grades are wrong. But that's, again, just the opinion of the person writing that. And the interesting part is the person writing those articles watches WAY less film than PFF does. The PFF analysts watch every snap of every game all season long. They are often former coaches, players and scouts. The person judging PFF watches just their team and likely very little ALL-22 tape. That's the funny part to me. You and others criticize the grades of people who watch and know significantly more football than you do. .

The Bills pay far more than $12.99 per month. Last I heard, teams pay PFF somewhere around $100k to PFF for their service. Why do you think that is? So they can burn Pegula’s money and laugh at PFF’s opinion during practice? Again, players can have their opinion but it doesn’t make them right. The teams who employ them, pay PFF. I’m going to trust the 32 NFL teams who pay significant money to PFF for their data over a random player. You and others don’t want to like PFF because they sometimes say unflattering things about the team and players you like. But oddly enough you will read a long article by Joe Buscaglia who has way less experience than the PFF graders who are partly comprised of former NFL players, coaches and scouts. Then there’s Chip Kelly, who like you railed against PFF. That is until he visited their headquarters, saw how they do it, and walked away so impressed that he ended up buying shares of the company. “I think it’s impressive the work they do,” said Kubiak, head coach when the Denver Broncos won the Super Bowl “One of the things we asked (PFF) at the beginning of the year was always look at stacks and bunches. We always feel like stacks and bunches is important to understand how things play out. He is our stacks and bunches guru. We use PFF [Pro Football Focus] to give us a folder of stacks and bunches every week.” – Frank Reich "I don't think there's any question that they do a great job, and I think they're a valuable resource for us." - Kyle Shanahan, San Francisco 49ers head coach “We attributed all three special teams return TDs in 2017 to PFF data.” – FBS Special Teams Coach It would be more like PFF = Bills. Since the Bills pay them for their data.

Wildly enough, several do. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/lions-darius-slay-believes-the-earth-is-flat-just-like-sammy-watkins-kyrie-irving/amp/

There are football players who say the earth is flat. I’m hardly going to take one random players opinion over the 32 NFL teams (including the Bills) who pay PFF for their service.

I researched him extensively and I don’t know how anyone can say he’s not very good. The Ravens have an award for best linemen of the game. Powers won it 8 times last season. He’s also pretty NASTY and I like that. In college he told a reporter “I love taking a grown mans dream and just crushing it”. We need braulers like that on our team. Speaking of PFF, they show his blocking got BETTER after Lamar got injured and went out.

Interesting post. What were your thoughts on Poyer being out of position at times toward the end of last season and in the playoffs?

I hope you’re right and i’ll be rooting for you to be right.