silvermike

This is the least disciplined line in the league. They don't know the snap count.

So what starters are likely to shove off? On offense, Hangartener, Edwards, Owens, I'd say, with Ellison on defense? Mitchell, Whitner, Bell, and Williams all remaining on the bubble.

Yeah, it's tricky to figure out exactly. The Colts and Giants are both model franchises, that both suffered a terrible season and came away with a Manning and a long-term winning record. The Giants had been good, I guess, where the Colts were just starting out on their greatness. The Giants only have Eli as a result of any top-10 pick and Indianapolis also grabbed Edgerrin James with a top-10 pick (though he was gone when they won the Super Bowl anyway.) It does seem like those teams have enough talent evaluation skill to have grabbed a QB at some point since they got their Mannings. Maybe the Giants would have grabbed Schaub in the 2nd round if they had passed on Eli, or been the ones to have signed Drew Brees when he left San Diego (perhaps after losing the starting job to Eli Manning?) Maybe the Manning-less Colts would have ended up with Daunte Culpepper and thrived? Kurt Warner? It's hard to say, but I do agree there: they're good teams that got their key cog at the top of the draft, but might have solved the QB issue anyway.

The Steelers took Big Ben at #11. That was after a 6-10 season. So their bottoming out is really more of the low end of mediocrity, and roughly where we've been for a decade now. And in our time at the bottom, we've had shots at top-rated QBs. Not that they all worked out (we passed on Brady Quinn), but those shots were there.

Note - if you're responding to the original post, which is three pages long or so, you don't have to quote the whole thing.

2008 they sent me astroglide. 2009 they left it out. 2010, I imagine, we'll switch from rubber to sandpaper.

I'm going to use "appeared in conference championship game" as a barometer of greatness, just for the sake of argument: 2008: Arizona, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore. Arizona certainly spent some time along the bottom, and has Larry Fitzgerald to show for it. I think he's a huge part of why that team every got anywhere. Philly turned a 3-13 season into Donovan McNabb, though Garcia and Feely have shown that the team might be as good without him. Pittsburgh's only recent high draft pick is Roethlisberger, but he's still a result of mediocrity, not disaster. Baltimore's been consistent. 2007: New England, San Diego, New York, Green Bay The Giants and Chargers were running off top-5 picks in the same drafts. However, San Diego would be fine if they still had Brees instead of Rivers, so arguably, they really wasted the top-5 pick there. On the other hand, replace top-5 LaDanian Tomlinson with a generic, mid-round RB and it gets a little bit tougher. I think that really, both those teams got where they are because of bottoming out, although I suppose Kurt Warner has shown he's still got some stuff, and he might have remained the Giants QB without Manning. The Patriots never really bottomed out in composing their current team, and Green Bay also was dependent on no top-5 picks. 2006: Indianapolis, New England, Chicago, New Orleans Patriots as above, Colts obviously depend on their #1 overall pick. The Bears never bottomed out to get to where they were at the point, and while the Saints had a #2 overall pick in Reggie Bush, he hasn't been the kind of superstar that that pick would suggest. 2005: Steelers, Broncos, Seattle, Carolina Steelers as above. Broncos were going of Plummer and Mike Anderson for this one - that was a team that had no recent bad seasons. Seattle and Carolina also were perennial mid-level teams, though the Panthers really needed #2 pick Julius Peppers to get them in gear. 2004: Patriots, Steelers, Eagles, Falcons. Patriots and Steelers and Eagles - no changes. Falcons were really dependent on Vick at this point, for whom they traded up from #5. I'd say that counts. 2003: Patriots, Colts, Eagles, Panthers Nothing new here. So, New England, Pittsburgh, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, New Orleans, Green Bay, and Baltimore did it without bottoming out, while Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Carolina, Atlanta, San Diego, the Giants, and Arizona requires a trip to the bottom.

Just because bottoming out doesn't guarantee you a return to the top doesn't mean that getting to the top doesn't require bottoming out.

Man, though is Chicago ever a black hole for QBs. We haven't had a consistent QB since Jim Kelly, but they haven't had one since Sid Luckman.

The Bills really aren't terrible drafters, for the most part (Maybin remains a big test.) They just seem to whiff on free agents, they mismanage their own talent, and they never seem to know what the team's needs are.

Meh - it's the NFL's product, they get to decide who profits from it and how. I think they're generally wrong to limit celebrations, but I think it damages the game if the players are constantly shilling during the freaking game. Not that they don't already with all the branded gear, but at least that's sort of consistent.

At least 2012 really seems to go balls-to-the-wall on having no plot and only special effects. They went to the prop yard, found models of every major world monument, and smashed them with every other world monument or CGI tidal wave. This isn't some half assed, Independence Day "our aliens blew up the White House," it's "we crashed an aircraft carrier into the white house with a tidal wave." And hopefully, once everybody sees this non-stop series of explosions and car chases, they can never make this movie again.

It's really remarkable how many of those teams were in the top 11 last year. Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis, and KC just re-ordered themselves in the top four.

I'm not ready to give up on Maybin. First years can be a bit weird for some guys, who need to bulk up react faster and all the rest. But next year, if he's not a starter, I'm ready to push the panic button.

There's a difference between a player underachieving, and a player simply not being that good. It's not Donte's fault that Modrak/Levy/Jauron have no freaking clue how to draft in the first round. It's not like he's taking plays off or anything. He's just not that good of a safety. I don't blame Donte Whitner, I blame the guys who drafted him.

We barely even have any has-beens.

Yeah, well, also it's Peter King. If there isn't a single UFA lineman better than Brian St. Pierre next year, I'd be shocked. Note: I think it's more likely than we get Brian St. Pierre.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ.../08/mmqb/1.html

Flutie '99 or the 50-year-old Flutie '09?

What do you think the odds are that Jauron will even get a coordinator job in the NFL again? This team has sunk to the point where we fondly recall the coaches Tom Donahoe hired.

Here's to a good game from the Texans. They might actually be a contender.

Keith Ellison is #4 in the league in tackles. Fletcher leads him by 3, all of them assists. I think Fletcher is a good linebacker, but tackles isn't an effective measurement of that.

Other teams...who knows. I just meant THIS team, if it was fully healthy. As it is now, we have UFAs like Kirk Chambers starting (or whoever we've got at RT).

Yep. Who are the current UFAs that would be starters on a healthy team? Hangartener and Owens on offense, Mitchell alone on defense. That's a tiny bit of return on a fairly significant investment in the free agent market.

Honestly, I think our best long-term arrangement is sharing the team with Toronto. Once Ralph Wilson dies, there is always going to be more profit in buying the team and moving them to LA (or London, the way they talk lately) than keeping it in Buffalo. Any time the team comes up for sale, we need to hope for some sentimental billionaire to keep them around. Toronto is our best chance to sell luxury boxes and keep the team local. Buffalo supplies the numbers, Toronto supplies the money, and we go 4 and 4. That, or Buffalo could embark on the stunning economic recovery we're at least 40 years overdue for. Any thoughts? Maybe abandoned factories will be like the Pyramids for future tourists.