CosmicBills

Fitz is fine. His ribs are still broken.

And I'm too busy getting not-low and complaining the reason I'm not rich is because... well I forget. This is good ****.

Arguments like mine deserve to be deconstructed and ripped to shreds when wrong -- and I'm often wrong (especially about women)... so I'll play along I didn't mean to imply Chef or Kool Aid were extremists merely that the core of their argument highlighted the fundamental difference between the two poles. Chef's original response was to Bills Fan 4ever who said "Keep supporting the wealthy who pay 14% in taxes while you pay 30%. and people wonder why equality is such an issue." By pointing out what Chef and Kool Aid said I wasn't attempting to show them as extremists but rather show what Bills Fan 4ever and Chef/Kool Aid were really bumping up against. I just did so poorly by not including Bills Fan 4ever's quote. My point wasn't to call out Chef or Kool Aid for anything -- but rather to highlight what's really dividing the two sides in hopes of having a discussion about that (which we wound up with eventually). Sure it can. In this case, I made a vague point that you understandably missed. But in the end, my point wasn't all that great to begin with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-YZqH0vX_o&feature=related

Both.

I never said you believed that.

This is why I'm lost in terms of a political affiliation. I am a firm believer in what you're saying which eliminates 90% of the democratic economic policies for me. And that 90% is a 100% accurate and scientifically derived percentage and in no way bull **** figures I'm just throwing around. Truth.

No. The extreme belief is that all it takes is hard work. Work hard and no matter what soon enough you'll be rich -- and if you don't get rich it's because you didn't work hard enough.

Chef and Kool Aid pointed out the fundamental difference between both extremes on the right and left: "I'm not rich yet but one day I will be." The extreme right believes everyone gets what they deserve -- so if you work hard enough you'll eventually join the "rich" club. The extreme left believes that notion is a mirage and that the system is rigged to prevent equal opportunity for success.

There it is.

I walked into that one.

Finally, Bills Fan in SD's identity revealed!

I do agree in practice. But at what point does it become a federal issue? Currently there are what, 20+ states that have adopted constitutional amendments that ban same sex marriage... which runs counter to the 14th amendment. While a constitutional amendment defining marriage either way is a mistake, how long do we let a segment of the population dangle in limbo? What's the middle ground?

Interesting. I agree in principle.

But you don't speak out against it?

But, fittingly with this topic, Religion has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE US GOVERNMENT. So how can you justify amending the constitution to include a religious based view that oppresses a segment of the population? This is exactly why a barrier was created between church and state, was it not?

This is what drives me nuts. You're a smart guy. We don't agree on everything (nor should we), but there's no doubting your sincerity or intelligence. You know your history and I don't believe you to have a bigoted heart or any of that nonsense people start throwing out when talking about this topic. But we're talking about core values here. Freedom for the minority versus oppression from the majority. The right's stance on gay marriage runs counter to everything this nation was built on. So where do you draw the line? You like the right's fiscal policies but you're willing to tolerate supporting a party that is actively trying to change the constitution to limit the freedoms of a segment of the population. And it's a position that the moderates in the GOP don't even believe in!

You'd be surprised. I have a lot of respect for Mitt and voted for him as Governor. Again, you'd be surprised. We agree on way more than we disagree on. I'm not sure what you mean by this paragraph. I believe above all else that this is a nation built on inclusion -- not exclusion. I firmly believe homosexuality is not a choice. Using religion to thwart the personal liberties of US citizens is indeed alarming. It's never worked before and it's been tried many, many times. Each time the country has opted for personal freedom -- not restrictions. To think it's going to go any other way this time is just wrong. You take this as an attack on religion which it isn't. This is an attack on the ignorant or cowardly people who use religion as justification for oppression. Mitt isn't one of those people. He's just a guy trying to win an election by siding with a blatantly oppressive ideology.

You're right. Mitt did take a big leap. From supporting equality for openly gay servicemen in 94 to telling a gay veteran to his face that gay servicemen should not enjoy the same rights as straight servicemen. It's a huge leap -- yet Mitt made it.

Not disputing the benefit of pandering to politicians. But this is an entirely different issue. One politician moved towards supporting equality. One moved AGAINST equality -- not because he believes it (he doesn't) but because the religious fringe in his party demands it.

I didn't bring it up in reference to Obama. I brought it up in reference to Mitt specifically. This is a big issue for me personally as it speaks to the core of what this country is about. Mitt moved from support to opposition as a means to win an election. Political tap dancing is expected -- but dancing to the wrong side of history is alarming.

So he did the reverse of Romney who started for then moved against? Both candidates made mirrored moves on the issue -- neither should be held up as an example of principled actions.

That is one way to look at it... But then there's this... Mitt's '94 letter to the Log Cabin Republicans of Mass: So did did he really refuse to flip flop or did he refuse to admit he flip flopped already?

The RNC needs to invest in better voice actors. The content of the ad aside for a moment, the narrator sounds like he has a gun to his head.

Discuss... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRN9Y5Nvdqk&feature=player_embedded#![/media]