CosmicBills

Well now we're talking about 3 things at once. I'm not the one saying religious fundamentalism played a significant role in our national slide in science and technology. That's MM. My first post was to RK about his assertion that we were still the world leaders in science and technology. The facts are we are no longer number one in science or technology/innovation. We haven't been for quite some time. Those are the stats. MM is the one saying the over-religious nature of our populace is the reason. I disagree with that assertion as there are other more significant factors at play. I do agree with him that it has played a factor -- just a small one. But... If you want to pin me down ask yourself how teaching creationism and intelligent design in school is helpful to furthering our scientific understanding of the universe. Or ask yourself why a sitting member of the House Science committee went on the air and made exposed his truly mind-boggling ignorance about basic biology -- and then was defended by evangelicals despite the absurdity of his claims. Mourdock has since taken it to another level by cloaking his ignorance in the guise of God's plan. But arguing that religious fundamentalism is somehow pro-science is just silly. The two cannot co-exist and never have. How does a fundamentalist Christian explain the creation of the universe?

I'm in no way or no form attempting to paint every religious person with the fundamentalist brush. Truly fundamentalist religions are not the majority of religious people in this country.

I don't know where the war on women factors into this discussion -- but if you want to muddy the waters of the discussion with that, go ahead.

The issue isn't whether or not it's real. It's whether or not it's man-made.

Sorry, missed this... Science for sure. Technology and innovation, as I said in the subsequent post, is more of a murky position because there's no one defining number to point to. We lead the world in patents which is hugely important -- though becoming less so with the continued assault on IP in our own legal system let alone the global community's. Depending on which ranking you want to look at, the US ranks as low as 52nd in science and as high as 17th. In terms of technology and innovation we're anywhere from 3rd or as low as 7th.

I'm with you there.

It's not an expression of ignorance, it's a historical reality. Religious fundamentalism has always waged war against science because it presumes to know all the answers and views science as a threat. For reference open any history book.

Your fundamental belief that I'm a moron isn't mandated by God. That's the difference.

I commend you for finally posting one post without the use of emoticons. But you're talking about something completely different. This isn't about winning a war. This is about the fundamental disregard for due process -- not abroad but here. The "war" on terrorism is the justification the powers that be used to sell the American public that they'd be better off surrendering their civil liberties in the name of a "safer" world. "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When people fear the government there is tyranny."

Now. But without a trained labor force nor the raw materials to make good on any of those innovations. Not without outsourcing much of the production and manufacturing to other nations. Fast forward another decade, and the problem is exacerbated even more. Whoever develops and refines "new" energy will be the controlling economic power for the next century. Right now, we are in a worse position strategically to do that than ever before.

Actually, no. It's the definition of fundamentalism.

I hear you, but what can they do? The privatized prison industry accounts for BILLIONS in our national economy. The prison cartel is as powerful as the oil cartels in this country. You can't fight them. You either play ball or you don't win elections.

10 years ago, yes. Now, some have caught up. You could even argue some are ahead now because they've devoted their time and resources to positioning themselves better than we have. Of course, it's easier for them to do so because they have (for the most part) less people and less global responsibilities to attend to. China currently produces over 95% of the world's rare-earth metals used to manufacture high-tech chips and processors. 20 years ago they produced less than 50%. This is something that isn't talked about much but is quite alarming and fits a growing trend. We currently outsource a large portion of our high tech manufacturing jobs and industries to other countries, improving their labor force while weakening our own position. Another decade of a slide like that and we'll have a completely untrained labor force when it comes to high tech manufacturing. This will be devastating for our national economy. There are ripple effects to all of this, none more important than the diminishing rate of return on our own people. I'm not making the point that MM is. I don't have a problem with religion -- organized or otherwise -- in people's personal lives. I have a big problem with science religion (hahaha) intruding on the legislative process, which is why I no longer identify with the republican party.

Yes. I do.

That's a great one that needs to be addressed, Gringo. It's really a sad state of affairs. The war on drugs has turned into one of our country's biggest employers. It's depressing as hell. And it ties into my biggest ignored issue: Our continued surrendering of civil liberties without due process. Drones over US airspace, the strengthening of the Patriot Act (instead of it's repeal), and continuation of unlawful wiretaps has shredded every single citizen's civil rights in the name of fighting an invisible boogyman called "terrorism". We've gone past the slippery slope and are now careening down the hill at a rapidly increasing speed.

There was a reply.

No doubt about it -- but you're ignoring the progression that led us to this juncture. It didn't become this way simply because Obama snapped his fingers. We've been marching towards this for a decade and change now. It's an important topic to talk about but it's silly to pin this only on Obama and it's even sillier to expect that Mitt will do anything but further this terrifying march towards a military state. We're two decades away now. But no one seems to care.

We've outsourced a ton of our tech capabilities to countries with cheaper labor costs. The US provides over 40% of the research funding for the world and yet are 15th in terms of broadband speed -- we're behind a bunch of countries when it comes to innovation, though to be fair that is a very fuzzy statistic because you can manipulate the heck out of it to get what you want. Finland, Japan, South Korea and India have spent the better part of the past decade re-organizing their national innovation strategies to better position themselves in the 21st century. We need to be doing the same thing here -- but we're not. (this isn't a pro-Obama thing either, we haven't seriously addressed our national strategy in well over 2 decades which is why we're paying the price today). Religious fundamentalism by its very nature is anti-science because it is an absolute.

Yup.

We haven't been the leaders in science or technology for over a decade... but, you know, don't let facts get in your way.

B-Man, you know as well as I do this has nothing to do with which party is in the oval office. The changes started under Bush's watch and strengthened under Obama are just the beginning. The fact that we as a people (on both sides) have been so apathetic about these drastic, freedom altering transformations undertaken under the guise of protecting us from "terrorists" has only accelerated the process. We've done ourselves in because we're too busy playing politics and fighting with one another about petty s*&t to notice that the fundamental nature of this country is at risk.

Thank you.

You never once said "most". Not once. Care to keep digging? "Speaking of big words....I guess you need to look up segue? The moral high ground, and you, became incompatible the day you supported Clinton, but, want to keep telling us you "care about women". That made most Democrats into phonies. Either you never cared about "women's issues"(in the parlance of that time yes! lebowski reference), or, you decided to ignore them for convenience. You don't get to talk about other people's shifting values, until your aren't shifting. There was a time when Democrats had an advantage with sound, moral arguments to make, on many issues. Those days are over. It's like everything else with you guys: living in the past. The Republicans are now making sound, moral arguments, like the debt being immoral."

You mean other than the fact that you're drawing a false conclusion? Or maybe it's the fact that "victim mentality" -- however you wish to define it -- has nothing to do with this. Or maybe it's the fact that this is an alarming story -- but not in any way because of the things you bring up. You're beyond stretching. You're inventing. And inventing poorly.

:lol: