Beck Water

Well....I could be wrong....but I think the grabbing at the top of routes has to do with technique, not intrinsic physical abilities like agility. +

I'd be happy for Elam to succeed and if the Bills think he can succeed as a safety, more power to him. If there's one thing a safety needs to be, though, it's a solid open field tackler and willing to come in and thump against the run. Have you seen those traits in Elam? Cuz I haven't...and his NFL draft profile (Lance Zierlein) includes: "Doesn't play to his size in run support duties. Inconsistent coming to balance as open-field tackler.". Not that Zierlein is 100% of course but often I come back to the draft profiles he writes and nod, a few years down the line. Of course I could be wrong, and actually, I'd be happy to be wrong.

Thad has some TV segments with a guy who seems to know ball. Thad should step back and let that guy do the talking.

Well, Well, Well, Well. They wanted a 1-2-3 punch with Collins and Diggs and Dell. Much harder to defend. Also, Tank Dell broke his leg last December. He's young and should heal up, but good to have insurance in case he needs a bit of extra time.

When Beane traded a 3rd round pick for Kelvin Benjamin in his 4th year, and assumed his fully-guaranteed 5th year option (already picked up by CAR) he expected him to "solve his WR room issues". Emmanuel Sanders was also brought in to start as a John Brown replacement, a guy fast enough to get open down field and be #2 opposite Diggs. Jameson Crowder was brought in as Plan B in case McKenzie couldn't justify increased playing time. Those 3 guys were, in fact, intended to be starters or potential starters ("solve issues in the WR room"). Benjamin got injured and lost motivation, Sanders and Crowder just got injured. Bad on Beane that he couldn't predict that I guess? Sanders and Crowder played well before they were injured. Deonte Harty was a whiff by Beane, I grant that. If you're trying to make a "simple" point that the rest of that gang were brought in to "solve our WR issues", your point sailed "wide right. Andre Holmes, Andre Roberts, Jake Kumerow, Trent Sherfield, and now Mack Hollins were brought in as excellent ST who could "back up" the starters at WR. That would be a very strange definition of "brought in to solve WR issues". [Folks here can disagree that it's worthwhile to give a #5 or #6 slot to a ST player, but it's how Beane and McDermott roll, and that's different than pretending they were "brought in to solve our WR issues". They weren't. Duke Williams and Andy Isabella were both brought in as guys with the physical talent to succeed in the NFL, who could play on the Scout Team and maybe be elevated and fill in for a game or two if someone got hurt. I know it fights the "narrative" here, but same is true of Brown and Beasley 2.0: they weren't brought in to "solve WR issues", they were signed to the PS to be elevated and available in case of injury to starters at the end of the season, when we had already lost 2 WR to IR. Kerley Thompson, and Pryor were signed in 2018, when we didn't have a WR room beyond Fat Kelvin and Bath Salts Jones.

Groot at least showed up on the injury report and missed a game First I heard about Floyd battling injury was in @That's No Moon post I was responding to

Details please? He may have been hurt and played hurt, not saying he didn't. But strange how these former Bills players who [edit: are said by some here to have] got hurt and played hurt....never show up on the injury report. Not Diggs, and Not Floyd.

Just to point out that there's another category of justifiable "arm punt", which is the "hail mary" or deep pass as time expires at the half In general, I don't like the idea of "arm punts" because while the punt coverage team is practiced in covering the field and minimizing the opponent's gain, that is not true of the offense

He's riffing on the 2022 rumors that Allen cheated on his GF, got a bartender (or maybe a UB soccer player) pregnant, and (since a baby never showed up, but Allen presumably would have taken care of any offspring) said bartender (or soccer player) may have terminated the pregnancy - something that can't happen in Texas.

I don't know. None of us know. It was notable enough that TV commentators at times were saying "he's not on the same page with Josh Allen". It's not just OTAs, but maybe he didn't join Kincaid and Davis and others who worked with Josh outside of OTAs. We don't get a do-over where we play the same opponents with the same roster and coaches but this time, Diggs attends OTAs. Is that true? I didn't remember whether or not Diggs attended 2021 OTAs with the Bills.

That is your opinion, but historically, it has not been Beane's opinion. And it's not "just for ST", it's for a guy who plays ST but is believed to be a capable WR backup. Since Hollins was able to contribute 57 receptions on 690 yds when given the opportunity to play, "proven capable WR backup" would seem like an appropriate descriptor, No? I mean, who do you think should have been sitting on the WR bench all season behind Diggs, Davis, Harty, and Shakir? Beane has always said, on the Bills, the #5 (and #6 if they keep one) WR has to play ST. The problem last season wasn't that Sherfield was on the roster as a ST and backup WR, it's that halfway through the season Diggs stopped contributing like a #1 WR and Harty never contributed commensurate with the #4/gadget role.

https://www.outkick.com/sports/nfl-draft-tight-end-tip-reiman-believe-birds-combine Tip Reiman. The bird thing was started as a parody of ridiculous conspiracy theories. Much to the chagrin of its originator, it took off and is treated seriously by some.

In hindsight, what Josh had to say about Sherfield during preseason seems like foreshadowning. As I recall, it was all stuff about how he works hard and never complains. (the unstated implication might be that wasn't universally true in the WR room in 2022) Last season, I thought Sherfield was an improvement over Kumerow because I thought he'd be as good on ST as Kumerow, but a better WR. And he was - but it turned out that was too low of a bar. I thought it was unrealistic to expect Sherfield to have the 30 reception, 417 yd season he had in Miami where he played 58% of the snaps as the #3 WR behind Waddle and Hill. It turned out Sherfield played more offensive snaps than I thought and at critical times, due to injuries or due to Diggs taking himself out of the game or being taken out due to the package on different plays. I think it would be totally unreasonable to expect Hollins to be as productive as he was in Las Vegas where he played 94% of the snaps on offense and was the #2 WR behind Davante Adams. It would certainly be totally undesireable, since for Hollins to receive that much playing time would imply that the 3-4 WR ahead of him on the depth chart were struggling with injury or skill.

It's really not. We all know that Beane and McDermott place a high value on ST contributors - Andre Roberts, Jake Kumerow, Trent Sherfield, Siran Neal, Tyler Matakevich. Andre' Holmes is actually a fine comparator because Holmes also made his mark in the league as a ST'er. Andre Roberts had less than 200 receiving yards each season, for the 4 seasons before we signed him. Do we really think that Beane couldn't have found a better back up LB than Matakevich or a better dime back/back up slot corner than Siran Neal? Of course he could have, they were "roster locks" for their ST chops. So no, while I don't love the state of the WR room, having Hollins considered a "roster lock" really has nothing to do with the state of the WR room and everything to do with ST. And no, Hollins will not be the #4 WR - #5 or #6 probably, I think this is likely a year we keep 6.

Hollins has evidently been voted a team captain pretty much, like, everywhere he's played - including an offensive team captain on teams like the Dolphins where he primarily played ST. Including places where he only played one year. I think that says all one needs to know about how he's regarded in the locker room.

Diggs first year here was 2020, there were no OTAs though the WR and Josh did arrange a throwing session in FL that got videoed and photographed and shared a lot, to showcase "see, I'm a good teammate!". I don't remember 2021 2022 and 2023, definitely not here. Anyway I'm surprised Diggs isn't more "see, I'm a good teammate!" and showing up for OTAs on his new team. The post you're responding to said "get to know more" not "meet" and "develop chemistry with Stroud" not "shoot a video of practicing with"

It's like.....rookie minicamp and what, 3 OTA practices for the guy? This is just silly. He really hasn't even HAD a start yet.

He developed enough ability to run routes while with the Bills to not be an automatic "tell" for "here comes that jet sweep" and to fill in pretty well as a backup slot receiver, but it was one of the roster judgement errors of 2022 to believe that McKenzie could become a full time slot (and that Davis could take over as a full time "X" from Brown/Sanders). Although, to do Beane justice, they started the season with Crowder and platooned him at slot with McKenzie until Crowder broke his leg. So it was likely not their intent to count in McKenzie as the full time slot.

Was he ever at voluntary OTAs for the Bills? He got a lot of PR for the 2020 "no OTAs 'cuz Covid" off season We know he wasn't there for the 2022 or 2023 OTAs until mandatory minicamp, In 2023 he was at Fashion Week and Coachella I don't remember 2021

Oh for sure. He's 29 years old, his calling cards have been speed, quickness and availability. At 29, Father Time is gonna catch up to him Real Soon Now. He got out-played by Colts rookie Josh Downs last season (Downs is looking like a potential steal of a 3rd round pick). It actually wouldn't surprise me if McKenzie didn't make the Giants final 53, but I haven't been following the Giants roster enough to know what the competition is

That is true. You mentioned a couple guys on the couch and then said "Mckenzie likely has a job because Schoen and Daboll like him as a person" I interpreted that as indicating he had the job because they like him as a person, not because he brings a relatively hard to find skill set with his speed/quickness, that Daboll believes he can exploit It's not just speed, it's his combination of speed and quickness - some guys are fast running in a straight line. I dunno that it's the only thing he brings, but it's certainly the factor that keeps him employed going into his 8th season. Yes, I'm sure having previously coached a player gives confidence in signing a guy who has been in a spot of trouble, but I don't think it's the primary reason he got the gig. Speed and quickness in a guy who has shown he can actually play football at WR and on ST is valuable enough on its own to keep earning chances. Look at the way Andy Isabella, who has 33 receptions for 447 yards in SIX NFL SEASONS, keeps getting signed. McKenzie has his limitations, but he put up more receptions and yards in just 2022. We like to dunk on him here, and that's fine, but I don't agree he's getting signed because Daboll likes him. If Daboll liked him just as much but he'd lost his speed he'd be nudging Kumerow to move over on the couch.

He is still on the team at this point.

Not quite - not as smooth and effortless for the ordinary receptions. But still, very clean at the catch point. All of them. That's probably important. McKenzie on his podcasts with Dunne talked about it hurting to catch throws from Allen. McKenzie was a notorious and persistent body-catcher. Diggs once made the comment that Josh's throws don't hurt to catch "if you catch them right". Gabe Davis also had a non-standard way of catching balls outside his frame, which I don't think served him well at times.

I can sign up for my Crow Plate Special too. I don't see Sherfield as being at all the same type player as McKenzie or being asked to fill the same role. But I thought Harty would be an upgrade on what McKenzie was good at - quick slants and gadget plays, getting open against man - while also being able to run a fuller route tree. I was wrong, and I agree with you that Harty appeared to have lost the speed and quickness he showed in 2021 in NO. I disagree that Schoen and Daboll signed McKenzie because "they like him as a person". This is Daboll's 3rd season in NYC. He's definitely sitting in a hot skillet unless they win. Same for Schoen who is charged with getting Daboll the goods, and who made decisions like "pay Danny Dimes the Big Bucks". It would be stupid to sign a player just because they like him. Daboll used McKenzie very very effectively in 2020 and 2021. I suspect Schoen and scouts watched the tape to ask "is he still fast?" "Yep" and they decided he could help the team win, if used as he was in B'lo. He also returned punts and kicks for the Ponies last season, so there's that. As far as Sherfield, I think his role was to replace Kumerow on ST but be a better WR. And he was - marginally, but not by as big a margin as I thought so I will take my slice o' Crow Pie.

Agreed So it's understood that once a team is paying its QB the "Big Bucks", they only have cap space to pay 5-6 top players. My understanding was that it was usually QB, WR, LT, DE or LB (depending on defense), CB, DT. Sometimes a C has shown up there, sometimes RT instead of LT. So I was pretty surprised to poke around and learn that a couple of the top teams that are paying a QB (Dallas, KC, Rams ) are paying top cap % to a G. The Rams are paying 2 G