Beck Water

It's been said elsewhere. It's not the YPG that are the problem, it's the consistency. I'll grant Davis that Josh is giving him a lot of high degree of difficulty catches, or targeting him on deep or sideline balls that are essentially, throw aways - balls where if he did manage to put on a burst or catch it with a guy's hands in his face, you would say "wow!". (this may be generous, since some of them would be catches perhaps if Gabe ran a better route). But then there have been 3-5 balls where you go "he really should have caught that", in addition to his 7 scored drops. Let's say he managed to catch 4 of them - he had only 3 scored drops as a rookie with a similar number of target as this season to date - he'd be at 60% completion, the Bills would have a couple more TDs and 1Ds, and this wouldn't be a convo. I grant that Davis has played a couple games hampered on an injured ankle, and people have hypothesized he's still hampered (despite not being on injury report). I point to what Allen said when Tim Graham asked about him playing through injury: "We’re 8-3. That's it. I'm out there," Allen said. "If anybody says they're playing injury-free in this league, they’re probably lying to you. Everybody’s battling injuries, battling bumps and bruises. If I’m going to be the guy that I think I am, I say I am and my teammates think I am, (then) I've got to go be that guy, so that's all there is to it."

Thanks for clarifying your point. I agree, long routes are intrinsically lower completion %. I'm not sure that's the case with Davis. To my eyes, Gabe has been running both intermediate (meaning 5-15 yd-ish) and deeper routes all season I haven't seen him on shorter routes, and of recent, as discussed elsewhere, I think Dorsey's play designs have featured either deep or very short routes. I'm sure some site breaks down WR targets by depth, but I can't find it. There's only one game this season (Baltimore) where Davis had fewer than 5 targets. He averages 6 targets per game, and that's in fact his median # of targets: 1 10 target game, 3 7 target games, 3 6 target games, 3 5 target games, 1 3 target game. Seems to me Davis has been a focal point most games. It's not like Dawson Knox, who has 5 games with 3 or fewer targets, or Isaiah McKenzie, ditto. I would say Davis low catch percentage is, in fact, to some extent a product of Josh making him a focal point most games - he can be quite well covered, and Josh will trust him to make a play and throw it in there, giving him a lot of contested catches. I commented on Thursday while watching the game "Josh is doing him no favors".

Barkley is a good player, no doubt. But QB is the most important position on the team, and at the time the Giants picked Barkley it seemed pretty clear that Eli was washed. LOL likewise. I was also intrigued by Mason Rudolph. Thank God I'm not the GM, either.

McKenzie converted 4 1D on his 5 receptions vs. the hated Cheatriots, the week after he converted 4 1D and a TD on his way to 103 Y/Sc for a much-needed road win against the Lions - and what you have to say as a fan is "More poor plays than good, I hope Beane finally sees this and kicks him to the curb". Jeebus. McKenzie is not a great or maybe even an average pro player. He is physically limited - a Smurf. Yes he makes mistakes. I'm pretty sure he has far more Homer fans than I, who would not ack that. I would be happy if we had a better WR on the roster this season (hint: Shakir is not it at present, despite your earlier paen exhaulting him), or if Beane upgrades next season. Here's the thing: all of our players make mistakes. Josh has been the King of Mistakes at times this season, throwing 2 INTs per game for 3 successive games, 2 of which we lost. He threw 2 4Q picks vs the Packers which would have given a better team a chance to get back in it one on the GB 3 yard line. On that play, McKenzie had his DB boxed on the R goal line and Josh could have placed a ball where it would be McKenzie, or No One instead of trying to force it to Gabe. Made it a 24-17 game with more than 6 minutes less, how often have we seen Rodgers pull those out of his hat? Josh threw a 3Q pick deep in Bills territory, to a place where Davis wasn't, that gave the Jets the lead 17-14 and they never gave it back. Josh threw a 4Q and an EZ pick in the RZ vs Minnesota. I don't say this to dunk on Josh, whom I love - but these are mistakes I remember because they directly and credibly impacted the outcome of the game in 2 of our 3 losses. Without them, we would arguably be 11-1 and headed for home field and a bye, not 9-3 and spinning the Prayer Wheel today for the Bengals to bail us out. And maybe if Josh targeted Knox or McKenzie more, both of whom are often open as outlets underneath (or just threw it away), there would be better outcomes, not worse. Meanwhile, folks like you who call yourself "fans" feel entitled to flap your lips and dunk on the guy, and paint anyone who points out the unreasonableness of your claims as some kind of blind homer. I'll make you the same challenge that I made Alphadog7 with his "made mistakes on his routes many times that cost us". If there are so many route running mistakes that cost us, surely they should be memorable enough for him to point a few of those route running mistakes out. Same to you. McK has a 70% catch % on 35 receptions, 5 TD, 25 1D. Does he have the production we all hoped for from the slot position? No. Has he made mistakes? Yes. I can think of about 4. But if there are "more poor plays than good", surely an observant Bills fan such as yourself should be able to recall and point, oh, 30 or so of them out? You're coming across as a blind hater on a guy who, whatever his shortcomings may be, has contributed this season. The fact that you paint someone who can merely acknowledge good contributions as some kind of uber McKenzie homer seems to clinch that. SMDH.

Josh Allen high school freshman. 5'10, 130 lbs

I drank Irish whiskey after each score I plan to keep it up! I'm sorry but you must get a new free trial and repeat the experience for the next Bills game or we can't vouch for the possible repercussions

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. I wasn't trying to say they were "exclusive"? Point was made that Gabe Davis is actually doing pretty well in terms of yards per game, in fact he's in the top-32 WR, #27, so what more do Bills fans want out of the guy? Counter point: fans feel more consistency is needed from the #2. Higher catch %, fewer drops, and more consistent production game to game vs. 1 game with 171 yds and 6 games with <40 yds. You can see some of that in the stats by watching the top receiver list re-shuffle when sorted by receptions vs yards per game. Yes of course, if he had those things he'd have even higher yards per game, and that would be a Good Thing. Edit: and I feel I should point out that IMO, Gabe Davis is close to this. We're not talking about dozens of plays, we're talking about maybe 1 more catch in 3-4 games. I also feel that Josh plays a part in this, by consistently targeting Gabe on high degree of difficulty receptions, when he's in traffic or closely covered or lower percentage deep throws. I don't hold Gabe responsible for making the "oooohs" and "aaaaahs" plays that of course we'd like to see, but they would be genuinely top level receptions if he hauled them in. But he 's had a handful of catchable balls that the #2 WR on a top team really needs to secure.

McD has no direct experience of Rhodes in his exact system communicating with his guys. But I don't think McD wanted to "see what Rhodes can do". I think the plan was to play 100% nickel, in 100% or near 100% zone coverage, against a strong running team. I've been putting up the first Christmas decorations and dipping into the whiskey, so my recall is fuzzy, but I would expect them to have disguised coverage a lot as well to slow Mac Jones processing. Essentially, the Bills wanted to play PhD Zone with a run thumper CB, and Rhodes was a better fit because Elam's zone abilities are "progressing". Add in, likely they did want to give Elam 2+ weeks rest to put his ankle closer to right, Bonus.

I don't think it has to do with putting on some muscle because 1) Diggs did as well 2) Davis was running crisp routes at the start of the season No one has as crisp routes as Diggs, but Davis can break ankles. Remember the KC playoff game last season.

OK, I see that...#27 is clearly not sold on the backfield flow so Josh keeps it. I'm going to struggle to frame the question I have in a way that's answerable, so please bear with me while I flail around trying to frame this I think we have trouble with HB screen plays, and I think nobody buys them in part because of the run threat Josh poses. The DL isn't going to crash wholeheartedly into the backfield after Josh and let the RB release and catch the pass, because they're too worried that Josh will keep the ball, evade them in the backfield, and they'll be chasing his shoesoles down the field. TOf course, I could be incorrect, and it could be that we have "tells" or errors in execution because we don't practice them enough, or reasons I haven't thought of. But let me step back to Josh's read...#27 isn't sold on the backfield flow, and initially I think I see his eyes drawn to the backs. But very quickly, his eyes and #91 both shift to Josh, who is clearly the guy they're more concerned about. I'm wondering if it will be realistic for us to ever sell the backer on the backfield flow, because they're always mindful of Josh. If you're that backer, what would make the sale to you? Does that make any sense? PS that's a GREAT website by the way. Very clear explanations.

OK, so it's not just me. I was like "this? we're all psyched up about signing a guy who walks like this?"

OK, so in the example at 2:14 in the Pats highlights thing, if it were really a handoff to Hines, would it have been Cook's job to at least get in the end's way if not block him? Ugh Ugh Ugh I hate watching how Josh gets hit on that run but I digress....it seems to me we may have some trouble with these, as I think we do with screens, in part because of how teams have come to fear Josh's escapability and the threat he poses to break long runs himself. I'm pretty sure Belicheck and his assistants were banging it into their defenders heads all week that they better contain Josh no matter what. Is that a concern? If so, is there any way we can "sell it" better? And thanks for the link, BTW, very helpful.

What knee did this guy injure? Man, he got out of that car and took his first few steps like me when I slide my old carcasse out of the SUV after a long drive. And I ain't about to play flag football WR.

Kind of like that strip sack by Uche, where he ran right by Quessenberry, stripped Josh, then picked him up and slammed him down (which should have, IMHO, been a roughing foul since he'd already stripped the ball, but I digress) But you got to admit, some of the runs Josh does like the one here at 2:14 he's taking way more punishment than he needs to and putting himself at unnecessary risk. It was 2nd and 8. Yeah he wanted the first down, but 3rd and 1 isn't worth risking a trip to the Blue Tent of Doom where the "Independent Neurological Consultant" tells players "Yer OUT of the game".

If it was the Bills leading that Superbowl Parade last February, would you think so?

Um....the WR #3 usually is the guy who plays from the slot, ie, the "slot receiver". The slot receiver usually plays off the LOS and gets a free release. If you mean McKenzie would be better lined up on the LOS and having to fight for a clean release...No. No, he wouldn't. He's worked hard to improve there, but I think he'd tell you himself: "I line up across from someone a lot bigger, and I think OK, I can run by him..unless he gets his hands on me, then I'm in trouble". He can be jammed on the LOS and taken out of the play. It's why the Bills don't play him outside, even though one would think his speed would lend itself to that. You are, of course, completely correct that there isn't some organizational "let's bring the rookies along slowly" policy on the Bills. Gabe Davis would be another example of a rookie who saw extensive playing time from Day One - because of how he practiced and played in pre-season and then because of what he did with the snaps he got. In fact, Daboll said the Bills played more 4 and 5 WR sets in 2020 than he'd planned, simply because of how well Davis played.

Considering he's already had 10 touches against the Browns and 23 against NE, I think you may be seeing him more and sooner.

Ugh Thank You Sir Can I Have Another, I NEVER wanted to see a highlight of that particular Allen run play again. Delighted he got up and threw a TD but we could easily have lost him to the INC and the Blue Tent of Doom on that Play No, sincerely, thank you. But why is the end unblocked in that play? There must be a reason, since it's apparently part of the design. You know, I asked @HoofHearted for some explanation without going on the offensive, and he offered one. I asked for some clarification on a point, and it wouldn't surprise me if I got some either. And this isn't the first, or the second, or the third, time I've done that and received what I asked for. That's not a troll. Someone who isn't as polite as you'd like or doesn't respond as you'd like, doesn't make a troll.

Thought this deserved its own thread, didn't find one https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/rams-breaking-matthew-stafford-moves-to-ir-injury-season-ending/ar-AA14RPQW This is highly confusing to me. He's on injury report with a concussion and a neck strain. He's cleared concussion protocol and medically cleared from the neck strain. But, McVay is putting him on IR because he has his best interest in mind What the Holy Hell did I just read?

TBH, having delved into it a bit, I think that Dorsey all along intended to redistribute the way the slot was used, partly onto a pass catching RB and partly onto a TE. I don't think he's gotten as far as he wanted because apparently Cook 2.0 struggled a bit to adapt to the NFL and he's needed to keep backs/TE in to chip on pass plays. Not that he didn't intend to use McKenzie and Crowder as slot receivers, but that he intended to re-design the scope of the role. But with Cook now apparently starting to "get it", and with Dorsey starting to run 2 back sets, we may yet see (what I think was ) Dorsey's plan come to fruition. Shakir is getting a steady 16-ish snaps per game to show what he can do with them. If he starts getting open and making plays, he'll get more.

I have no opinion one way or the other on the veracity of this report. Someone posted the first of a series of tweets and I thought the rest of the series was of interest. As far as "not posting anything but pro-Giants stuff", read the guy's actual tweet. Tre White had surgery Dec 16th. He started practicing with the team in mid-October, just about 10 months later. He was placed on the roster Nov 1, and saw snaps in his first game on Thanksgiving, a year after his original injury. Odell Beckham injured his ACL on 2-13-2022. It's always been a question, would he really be ready to play in December, only 10 months after the injury? The average time to return to play for an NFL wide receiver in one study was 13 months. Even if he's "good to go" on the ACL, He might need a month to ramp up into "playing shape". Tom Brady says it takes him a month to build timing and get in sync with a new receiver. It's reasonable to ask how much OBJ would contribute this season. All that being the case, what this "Giants reporter" says meshes in with facts about injury and new player timelines and seems to raise questions worth asking. So frankly, I think what this guy says makes sense from a logical POV

Players who are deemed recovered enough from injury that they don't need treatment and aren't limited in practice, may not be 100% yet. It has also happened before that the Bills have made a player a "healthy scratch" during the season, then after the season have said that he needed more time to "get right" after an injury - maybe not treating the injury per se, but rehabbing around it. Harrison Phillips the year after his ACL would be one example. He was made a "healthy scratch" for 4 games in the middle of the season. After the season, Beane said he needed more time to rehab enough to play up to their standard, even though he was healthy enough to play. So it wouldn't be unheard of that the Bills said "OK, Elam's performance is not up to our standard, and not up to his play earlier in the season, and let's look at why" and decide that the injury might have something to do with it and he was gonna sit a week or two and heal. Or, it could have been a matchup decision, that the Bills decided to play 100% nickel against a strong running back, and they felt Rhodes would be the better defender against the run and/or more able to handle disguised coverage from zone, on the road (though the stadium soon became quiet enough IMO)

I hear you about unreasonable expectations, but perhaps the fact that he's currently 47th for targets, but 72nd for receptions might have some bearing here? It's great to have a guy who can break big plays every few games, but you also need guys who can get you first downs reliably.

Poyer hugging and kissing the ball in warmups, LOL

Fran Tarkenton (1961) and Bobby Douglass say "hi". It's far from a new thing. These might interest you if you'd like to talk in terms of the history of the game: https://www.thesportster.com/nfl-best-running-quarterbacks/ https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/who-is-the-best-running-qb-in-nfl-history https://www.milehighreport.com/2022/10/21/23416200/how-the-running-quarterback-has-changed-the-nfl There's some interesting commentary by Dick Vermeil here: https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/qb-hub/the-evolution-of-running-quarterbacks/ According to Vermeil, it wasn't so much fear of losing the QB that influenced front office and coach thinking. They knew that QBs who stayed in the pocket would get hit more and take a beating. But they believed that QB who could run, wouldn't stand in and take a beating, thus overall there would be less passing plays.