Beck Water

I don't entirely agree that Davis isn't "a number 2 WR at all". I think Davis isn't a number 2 only when compared with the #2 on teams that have 2 #1 WR - Bengals, Eagles, Miami. But with the bolded part, I agree completely.

I think you could have stopped right there. Meaning no offense, since hey, it's still the off season and no practice today, so what all do we have to talk about? I'm pretty sure Isabella is here because he's fast, and Beane is always willing to see if there's something his coaches can get out of a fast player. Someone pointed out (sorry, don't remember who for credit) and I think it's a good point - one role for Isabella could be "that fast guy on the scout team helping the D prepare to face fast guys". That suggestion was a lightbulb "Oh, so that's why!" moment for me. So the idea might be to have a fast vet who's worn out his welcome as a starter, and could maybe be stashed on the PS for that reason, and if by some chance he shows a lot in camp he could maybe earn a shot. Fast rookies or young players on PS tend to get sniped on waivers because other teams wanna see what they've got. We've seen it year after year - players "flash" in camp and become fan favorites, only to disappear in the regular season. We don't even know if Kincaid will look the same in pads at this point, much less against a physical defense determined to take him away. So it's great that they look good, but smart GMs don't rate their chickens too carefully based on preseason. What you say is true. But Beane's pattern in these situations is to use the hell out of the player while he's under contract in a contract year and then thank him for his service and wave goodbye - not trade him while he's still under contract. Bottom line up front: the Bills have one of the thinnest WR rooms for a contender. As far as guys who have proven they can make the plays on Sunday in the season, we have Diggs, Davis, "if healthy one year" on Harty, "one year behind Hill and Waddle who teams were petrified of" for Sherfield, a guy who flashed occasionally and made gaffes (not unusual for a rookie) in Shakir, and an actual rookie. Trading the teams #2 receiver and making our already thin WR room even thinner, would be a horrid move for a team that hopes to contend. 1) it's the start of camp 2) Allen has been focusing somewhat on Diggs, understandable since Diggs missed all of OTAs, didn't participate in the team portion at mandatory minicamp, and reportedly didn't travel to Cali to throw with Josh before training camp. 3) Allen has new targets to build chemistry with, including Kincaid, Harty, Sherfield, and Shorter. Wait and see.

It's been pretty widely reported that Belicheck runs the show. And I don't know of a HC in the league that allows anyone else to choose his coaching assistants.

As Mark Sanchez once said on TV, "I would never say they cheat. I would say that they're relentless in their search for a competitive advantage"

It would be a great mistake for a franchise to start making personnel decisions, including coach and GM, based upon a player's friendship with the owner. Ya Hate Ta See It. 🍿🍿 BTW Ben Volin is legit and has sources, but he also has a track record of sometimes being quite wrong. So I'd get out the salt shaker for all this. Interesting though, thanks for posting! I'm thinking about this, and I believe one has to factor in his choices of OC and DC into his "quality of coaching" evaluation. Matt Patricia and Joe Judge as OCs last season was a stunning gaffe. And it's not clear having his son call the defense is a smart move.

I mean, if football is truly positionless, then describing offensive personnel sets would also be meaningless. At this point, though, I think one would have to say that there are exceptions, but the clear majority of the time neither is true.

Perhaps, but given that their top 3 WR are pretty much set in stone and that their OC is going into his 5th season, I'm gonna guess not much impact. The main issue is that if they bring him back too soon, it might linger.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. You said "Hines was a RB to return. Isabella is a WR to return. Same roster spot different position, but, same position. Players get hurt too. Great player to hedge bets with." I interpreted that as you believing Hines and Isabella were on the same level as potential PR/KR. In fact, Isabella's experience with KR is minimal, and his PR is one. One return, one yard. So sure, he's signed to the roster to show what he can do. But in the sense of providing a proven alternative at KR/PR, No.

LOL. Preseason depth charts are notably meaningless, kind of like pre-season "power rankings". Which is why the Bills website simply says "depth chart will be announced at a later date". For that matter, in-season depth charts just slot all the 53 players onto a chart, which is why you would find stuff like Andre Smith backing up Matt Milano; when Milano was actually injured, is that who we'd see on the field? Hell to the No's! Look, I wish Shakir well. Rookie to 2nd year are expected to take a big step and I hope he does. But let's not fluff up his experience and its results last season to make him into a proven and reliable returner, or use the first 3 days of training camp to craft a narrative to that effect. If that's true, the problem is that a large portion of the playbook the team has been practicing goes away. Who do you see as the "21" personnel and why would that be the go-to?

I'm pretty sure that the websites who track are all getting their info from a couple of sources. So this would really be a great question to ask someone who subscribes to these sources and has access to the info - PFF, there's another one that starts with "S", maybe "Sports Statistical Information"? That's probably wrong, meaning there's a high probability someone will pop up and correct me. Anyway, I can tell you that the free websites I've found who make or made some of this information available, seem to track entirely by player position. Which is not to say that they all do, just that the service that site uses tracks that way. IOW, when Gilliam was listed as a TE, plays where he was in along with a RB and TE weeks where he played as a fullback a fair bit were listed as 1,2; when Gilliam was listed as a fullback, the same plays were listed as 2,1 and so were plays where played inline. I understand your point, but I'm not sure I agree. The logical extension would be if an RB lines up in the slot, he should be labeled a WR for that play, or if a WR lines up in the backfield and takes a handoff he should be labeled as an RB for that play. Yet as we've seen from this week's training camp, that can all be changed in a couple seconds with pre-snap motion. So I think there is probably value in tracking what actual player positions are on the field.

Well, I'm probably the one who said it, based on what Josh said in a segment of Kyle Brandt's Basement that it forced him back to an overhead, lateral throwing motion instead of the rotational throwing motion he developed that improved his accuracy But I'm not sure that's all there is to it.

Dude. Hines had been one of the top KR/PR in the league for several years Isabella has returned 1 punt for 1 yard, and 8 kickoffs TOTAL in his 4 year career - 5 in the first year Help me understand why you believe the above should entitle him to a roster spot as a KR/PR?

Now think this through a bit. We kept 7 WR in 2021 by having only 2 TE on the roster - Knox and Sweeney. That bit us on the butt when Knox broke his hand and was out a few weeks. It would be foolish, if we're counting on 2 TE sets to be an integral part of the offense, to keep less than 3 (plus Gilliam as a FB/break glass in emergency TE) and it wouldn't be outlandish to keep 4. The roster space has to come from somewhere, and means we're keeping 6 WR max.

Dude. Shakir returned 3 (three) punts last year. 3 punts, for 23 yards total. Pittsburgh: let one bounce. Wound up pinning the Bills on the Pittsburgh 2. 1 FC KC: 2 PR, 6 yds bobbled one, pinned the Bills on the KC 4. 1 FC GB: 1 PR for 17 yds (nice). 1 FC. And then the Bills traded for Nyheim Hines 2 days later, on November 1st. He immediately took over PR and KR duties. You may not connect the dots between Shakir returning punts in 3 games then the Bills trading for a player who immediately took over KR/PR.... But do you really want to claim that handling 7 punts in 3 games make a player "a solid and reliable punt returner last year" and show "coaches have faith with Shakir"? Especially when they go out and trade for a player who then takes over? I actually hate to write this because I like Shakir and want him to succeed. But c'mon people - let him be what he's actually shown to date. Don't puff him up into something he isn't. I don't think after 3 days we know who is "on top of PR". We know that at least 3 guys are returning kicks and punts: Harty, Evans, and Shakir (in no particular order)

So, pro and con. Pro: Listening to Cover1's recap of Day 3, they make a point that there seems to be a clearly defined top 5 that are rotating and taking reps with the top offense: Diggs, Davis, Shakir, Sherfield and Harty. And, the Bills normally don't give up on their draft picks too early or easily. Con: That said - there's also a pack of receivers with a couple looking very good behind them. We presumably want to keep Shorter unless he looks horrid, since we just drafted him in the 5th round this year. Add Andy Isabella. In 2021, the Bills kept more WR by keeping fewer TE. That can't happen this year. If we're going to rely on Kincaid and craft a major offensive role around 12 sets, we need depth at TE behind him. I think if Shakir fails to define a role for himself as a KR/PR and keeps dropping balls, the door is open. That's a very valid point I hadn't thought of. One of McKenzie's roles (and RayRay before him) was PS player helping the D get ready for speedy players. If they're counting on Harty to have a major offensive and even ST role, they won't want him doing that.

Holy 💨💨 So the last guy to be beat was Cam Lewis (39) who was the one who fell down chasing Diggs? Was that Baylon Spector? Any plan that puts a MLB on Diggs....is a Bad Plan

Exactly. Starting out, the patience a team has for a player who is struggling, roughly tracks with where he was drafted, and whether he was drafted by the current staff or not. So 3rd round pick Dawson Knox gets more patience when he looks like "dropsome" than 5th round pick Khalil Shakir. Then, a player earns patience by what he's contributed to the team. Gabe Davis has had 1 game >200 yds, 5 games over 100 yds, and something like 15 games over 70 yds (ave 70 ypg is what the top-15 WR collect). That's out of 54 games played. So that's pushing towards 30% of his games, contribute yardage at the level of a top WR. That earns him extra patience for a 4th rounder. Last season, people on this board loved to prop Shakir up because they were frustrated with the guy playing ahead of him - Isaiah McKenzie. And he did show flashes. But it's also true Shakir dropped 2 of his 20 targets last season - scored drops, meaning someone said "yeah, a decent receiver oughtta haul that one in" There were times when he ran the wrong route. There were times against zone when he threw the mail flag up oblivious to where he was relative to defenders who weren't actually chasing him. Like @BuffaloBillyG said, he's gonna have to earn it, and he's got competition.

You can't coach speed, but we've had our share of speedsters who can't ball. So you can't coach ball into a guy who isn't a football player to start with (TJ Graham, Robert Foster, Marquez Stevenson) TJ Graham went through 6 teams plus CFL Foster is currently a FA after 7 teams gave him a try Stevenson was just cut by the Panthers, his 3rd team. Now I'll grant Isabella stayed with his first team 3 years, which puts him ahead of those guys as a football player. But the point remains - you can't coach speed, but you can't football into a guy who doesn't have the instincts for it by the time he hits the pros, either Maybe I'm wrong about Isabella. Maybe he can ball, and just hasn't had the right chance with the right coach used in the right way. Zay Jones. Took 5-6 years though.

I'll hope you're right To put it bluntly: No.

So the author's solution to getting production out of Andy Isabella is he should be the #1 or #2 WR ahead of DeAndre Hopkins, Larry Fitz and Christian Kirk? 🤔 I don't think he's gonna be the #1 or #2 WR here, either And I think Josh Allen needs to build a lot of trust to throw so it gets there just as the receiver is coming out of his breaks Then there's the point that a change of scene to Baltimore didn't seem to help him any

Search function for the Win! I was wondering if this had been posted yet. "Creative differences" between Astro and SDS, or so I believe If I'm being honest, I think you should get your butt to training camp and provide us with examples of "extraordinary insight" so we may watch and learn. Otherwise, why dunk on someone who is putting time and effort into producing something many of us enjoy? I like reading different perspectives from different people because they often see things the other misses, or pick up details the other leaves out. PS plus, Sue Me, I like his sense of humor

Unless you had a mic on him, the best I can give that one is "not proven" "I need my bag" "what's you're excuse now, Josh?" and other things that have been caught on video expressing upset, Not That Thing

We'll have to agree to disagree. Except that the team played like ass in the Bengals game (not the rest of the year - the Bengals game. I agree with that. I don't know how anyone could disagree. But I'll throw down "Phased out at the end of the year" Here's a plot of targets per game for two wide receivers. Point out which one was "phased out at the end of the year and playoffs" The "If Allen and the staff had handled it the right way" depends upon granting your theory that Diggs was phased out. which I'll grant only after you explain to me which of the dots represent a receiver being "phased out" and why it should be interpreted that way. Could everyone have communicated more clearly at times, probably - but that goes both ways. Second, sorry, but however Allen and the coaches handled it, Diggs was exhibiting diva-like behavior. Plain and simple. Storming out of the tunnel after a loss, as a team captain, is the very definition of that thing.

AFAIK they didn't do that with Keenum last year. I could be wrong, but I also think Barkley didn't sign until later in the pre-season. They didn't do it with Trubisky, either AFAIK.

It's a mystery. I'm hoping someone will ask him. My guess is that he's using the live or the sports function on his iphone, and doesn't realize twitter will only pull the first pic.