Beck Water

Another example: Jerry Hughes. After he went into the tunnel just fuming and going off about the refs that one time, the word was soon out that you could grab Jerry Hughes with both hands (and probably your teeth, as long as you didn't leave marks) and it would make no difference. No holding was ever called, no hands to the face, nothing.

Speaking of Trey Lance...Bills may have enquired, but SF ate $8.4M of dead cap to move him. Stands to reason they wanted some reasonable draft comp. However, anyone who refers to drafting Boogie Basham or Cody Ford in the 2nd as the worst draft pick ever is cordially invited to read this article: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38253859/trey-lance-future-best-nfl-team-trade-fits-how-49ers-got-wrong-next From what was quoted, "Beane told me off the record" was not said, and it was said in front of actual microphones during an actual broadcast. If you're a journalist and that's your idea of proper journalistic etiquette for an "off the record" source, I don't know what to tell you.

I could be mistaken, but I believe McDermott and other coaches have alluded to the NFL fining them for criticizing the refs. At best, the coach will be fined, at worst, the coach will be fined AND the team will draw extra scrutiny from the league and from the refs. I believe the teams ARE allowed to send film to the league and question certain observations, or to raise issues about a pattern they believe they observe.

I guess opinions will vary, but if you express such a negative opinion of a player you have signed and are evaluating - not just "he's struggling right now, the playbook is new to him, I'm concerned" but "he just doesn't have what it takes / it's never gonna happen for him" - Wow. That's a very concerning way to talk about your roster to a member of the media, even "off the record". I don't think that's inconsequential to tell the media that a player you signed and penciled in as "#2" just doesn't have what it takes and is never going to improve. If your judgement is so bad that you confide in a member of the media "off the record" who then babbles it to his media buddy in front of a microphone, that's even worse. It's one thing for reporters to find something out, but for the GM to say something like that outside the facility, to someone who doesn't evaluate talent or coach for the Bills....Whew. I am highly skeptical because the Bills under Beane have a reputation as a "deep well", where scouts and NFL insiders say you just don't hear anything until it's happening. and that starts at the top, with Beane. It seems very out of character and out of keeping with the way the Bills seem to run things.

So here's the thing. If I speak "off the record" to you, it means I'm speaking in confidence. It's between you, me, and the walls. If you then make it between you, me, and your radio broadcast buddy IN THE BOOTH, with microphones around, it's no longer "off the record". You have broken my confidence. If it were true that Beane said something like that "off the record" to Miller, you need to change the tense to "it seems they HAD a good relationship".

So there's some kind of serious disconnect here. I've been watching the One Bills Live interview with Jordan Palmer. https://www.buffalobills.com/video/one-bills-live-jordan-palmer-on-working-with-josh-and-kyle-allen 14 minutes in, Palmer is talking about how Kyle Allen is one of the "smarter young football minds"; he talks about how the Bills have a really complicated offense to learn and Kyle picked it up "really quickly" In Beane's interview post-cutdown, he mentioned how Kyle needs to learn their offense, it's complicated, and how Case Keenum acknowledged it was a couple months into the season before he really "got it". Is Kyle Allen one of those "catnip for Coaches" guys who's a wizard in the film room and at the whiteboard, but who either can't put pen to paper when it comes to running the offense on the field, or whose eyes write checks that their arm can't cash? On the other hand.....the alleged comments come from the Chicago radio announcers, not Beane. And in the linked thread, @GoBills808 asks the highly relevant question "Why would Beane say that to a Bears announcer?" If there's one thing a GM needs, it's to live by the precept "A Closed Mouth Gathers No Feet". He absolutely can not be babbling stuff to other team's RADIO ANNOUNCERS, media members fergoshsakes, about one of his players - especially not stuff like ""Beane told me Allen has struggled from the very beginning. He just doesn't have what it takes / it's never gonna happen for him. He said he was very concerned." I vote "did not happen".

They played college ball together.

Interesting explanation. It's a fact that when the Bills tried to plug Dodson in for Milano, it did NOT go well. When the Bills tried to plug AJ Klein in for Milano, someone (might have been @GunnerBill? Someone who's a respected regular here) called him "the worst LB I have ever seen". Fast forward past 2 weeks where Milano is still trying to play and Klein is trying to load share with him. The Bills admit "this isn't working", they IR Milano, and the Bills defensive brain trust sits down and re-works the defensive responsibilities. BOOM "the worst linebacker I have ever seen" is KILLING Seattle. 4 sacks, a forced fumble he recovered, tackle for loss, pass defensed - AFC Defensive Player of the Week and for the next 3 games he didn't look back. I guarantee Russ Wilson saw "54" in his sleep for weeks. Anyway, valid point that there has been no "Plan B" to the Guido Torpedo. What I'm not sure about is that the Bills don't see Williams eventually playing MLB. But they have certainly made it clear, that's not where they see him at present.

Deion Jones was very very good early in his career. 1st team all pro, DROY, pro bowl. Did you see anything of him last year in Cleveland? He's listed as having 5 starts. He was with the Panthers thru training camp but cut on Tuesday. The contract he signed last spring with the Panthers was just over vet minimum. Jaylon Smith had been an injury replacement at MLB for the Giants last 2 seasons. Wound up starting 13 games for them at MLB last year. Signed with the Saints for vet minimum, cut and now on their practice squad.

Can you tell me more about this "off air leaked audio from the Bears booth"?

Harvard does not offer scholarships per se. Has not for more than 40 years. Like the rest of the Ivy league and MIT, they offer need-based grants and loans that, with family contribution, are supposed to cover the cost of attendance. Now whether their idea of what your family can contribute, and your family's idea, agree, is another matter.

It's interesting. Superficially, Oliver's contract and Edmunds are not too dissimilar. Oliver: 4 year $68M, $45M guaranteed ($24.5M guaranteed at signing) Edmunds: 4 year $72M, $50M guaranteed ($36.8M guaranteed at signing) Differences include $12.3M more guaranteed at signing and an extra million a year. Reportedly, Oliver's language contains offset language (if he is released and signs elsewhere, the Bills subtract his new team's salary from what they owe). I agree that various lines of evidence suggest the Bills wanted to re-sign Edmunds but he went above what they were willing to pay. I think there probably were some FA MLB available who were at least as "true" MLB as Dodson and Bernard are.

I'm not sure it means anything more than that they think Kirksey should be an upgrade on AJ Klein at this point. After all, they had the youth of Bernard/Dodson and they still went out and re-signed AJ Klein. Who looked, in game 3, like he couldn't be trusted to be where he was supposed to, because he simply wasn't able to get there.

Succinct statement of what I've been trying to explain. And Edmunds actually took a big step in his 5th year to the point where you might say "all pro is possible from here", but you don't bet 4 year, $72M with $50M guaranteed on that after he hasn't managed it in 5.

Good question. He was at one point. At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain". What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate for elite physicality. That's really what this is. They saw an opportunity to upgrade on AJ Klein for the practice squad and as a "plan C" in case Dodson and Bernard both fail at MLB. Time will tell on everything else. Some people here like to over-react on everything. We trade an RB who is parked on the bench for Nyheim Hines, who immediately takes over the punt return duties that Crowder had been filling and that Shakir and McKenzie looked shaky with - and proceded to fill them capably all season while making limited offensive contributions. But some here act like we traded for our own budget Christian McCaffrey who would become an immediate game-changer on offense. Rationally when you look at what Hines actually accomplished before the trade, he was contributing a couple of rush attempts and a couple of receptions per game, for about 34 ypg, as well as being a solid returner. We got a good ROI for what we sent, and what his previous history was. Yea us!

Let me try to spell it out for you: 1) you laughed uproariously at McKenzie being reported cut from the Colts 2) a Colts NFL Insider pointed out that sometimes players are cut during roster manipulation, then re-signed 3) that is, in fact, what happened with McKenzie, as the Colts have now resigned him Why you can't process these simple facts and have to project some kind of personal quest into it instead, I don't understand, but You Do You. Aged well....Not.

Just a little point that last season, if you look at "passer rating against", Edmunds was 30th in the league with 63.6. If, by "heat seeking missile", you mean "able to seek and defend pass targets", there were only 4 LB who were better, one of whom was our own Guido Torpedo, Matt Milano, at 62.6. There were a lot of DB who were worse last year. I'll engage because I think you said something where we might be able to identify points of agreement and communicate. I think they do believe "most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams". I think they do believe a MLB who is not a force against passing teams isn't worth "much more than low-third-round picks". But I don't think it follows that they don't WANT an MLB who can be a force against passing teams. I think if there's someone they identify who could plausibly become what they hoped Edmunds would be, they would put resources into acquiring him. But Edmunds was the #6 FA contract this year, too rich for a team that is already paying their QB, WR1, LT, Edge, and CB on 2nd contracts, and there wasn't someone they could identify in that range. I do think they could have and should have done a bit more at MLB, but that's another story.

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option. Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them? Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp? Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital"? Seriously? As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team. They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy. You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak". I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other menu needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger, buy two beef calves to fatten up for the future, and fund the organic chicken and prime veal they need. That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future". That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year. Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment. It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). I don't think you're able to be fully reasonable in discussion on this point - you seem so dug in on your POV that you're unable to fully recognize counter points. I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Ciao!

So his positive traits would be explosion, and fast straight-line speed? What do you see as a ceiling? I sort of felt the "best ability is availability" combined with coaching change was sufficient explanation for "moving right along". Near as I can tell, he had 4 different DCs in Cleveland, then when Kevin Stefanski took over, it only makes sense to kick the highly paid guy with the poor availability to the curb. But Pettine, who was his HC for 2 years, was DC in Green Bay when they signed him - that would say Pettine thought well of him. When I look at Spotrac's ILB FA list, it's kind of un-inspiring. But there are a couple guys who signed for $2.5-$3M who seem plausibly better than what we have

We've had this discussion in depth before, and as before, I don't think your conclusion is correct - though framing it as "isn't that important to have a star" is closer to reasonable than your previous "MLB is the least important player on defense". It is a point that McDermott has managed to build a competent, average-ish defense without that middle "star" at times. He did in 2017. They plainly would prefer a star, or why would Beane have traded up and used a first round pick on Edmunds, then signed his 5th year option, if having a star in the middle wasn't important to him? Why did Carolina invest in Keuchly? I think that to the contrary, while last season was Edmunds best to date, he just didn't emerge into enough of that Keuchly-like "star in the middle" that would persuade Beane and McDermott to lock down the kind of money and duration of contract stars receive - and that Edmunds was able to attract on the open market. They want a star at MLB, they just didn't see Edmunds shining brightly enough. Remember "does Edmunds need to produce more splash plays?" "Yes." On the other hand, I'm getting "last year's slot receiver" vibes from the steps Beane took to build that "defense without an MLB star". To recap, last year Beane and McDermott wagered that between a vet who had shown out in the rare times the starter went down (McKenzie), two vet FA (Austin and Crowder) and a 5th round pick in Shakir - oh, and Knox, who had shown himself more reliable as a target in 2021 - he had done "enough" at slot receiver. Well, he hadn't, as the use of this year's 1st round pick on Kincaid plus this year's 2nd biggest FA spend on Harty showed. This season, Beane wagered that between a 4th year ST ace who had played with variable success when plugged in for Edmunds in 2 "starts" + most of a 3rd game** (Dodson), last year's 3rd rounder, and AJ Klein he would have done "enough" (I don't know what they really thought about Spector TBH). Well, between Klein apparently having lost 2 steps, Bernard not hitting the gym and drinking his protein shakes like he should have off-season then having a hammy, and Dodson still being Dodson, I think the answer is "hadn't" again. Moving on from Klein to Kirksey may be a positive step - we'll see what he has once the hammy heals up. Josh Norman had a hammy to start the 2020 season, and it became evident when he did start that the answer to "can he still play as McDermott and Frazier hoped?" was "No". Age 33 doesn't heal like 23, that's for darn sure. But don't be surprised if significant resources are used on an MLB next season unless Dorian Williams comes on strong. Edit: ** meant to add, that while Dodson shows as having 5 starts, they break down as follows: 2 - substituting for Milano. Bad. Very Bad. When you substitute straight-up for "Cookie", your defense may crumble. See Klein, AJ. 2- substituting for Edmunds "next man up" fashion. OK against the run, sucked in by PA, couldn't cover. 1 - listed as starter, but both Milano and Edmunds played. The team started in 4-3 base, so Dodson was listed as a starter though he only played 10 total defensive snaps

Fair enough as a reaction to the "he starts week one" "after half time week 2", upgrade from Edmunds because (more tackles in....more games played) gang. That's been kind of chafing my grits as well. I think this is a solid cutdown-day signing and it's excellent that we were able to put him on the PS at least to come up to speed in our offense and complete his rehab. The 53 man roster had questions at backup OT, MLB, and QB and props to Beane for addressing all 3. My point is that I don't think truly below-average players keep getting signed into their 30's. Kirksey got a second contract from the Browns for 4 years, $38M ($9.5/yr). They did have some defensive talent at that point with Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah, and Joe Schoebert - and they re-upped Kirksey at that point even though they switched their defense from 3-4 to 4-3 and moved him outside. It IS the Browns, but do they really do that for a guy who's below average? For comparison, $9.5M AAV would currently slot him in at #7 ILB in the league, between DeVondre Campbell and Demario Davis. Then Green Bay signed him 2 year, $13M ($6.5/yr) - again, that's not a star, but it's not a "below average" player offer to a 7 year vet who just got cut 2 years into his 2nd contract. It would currently slot him in at #10 ILB in AAV, between Eric Kendricks and Ju'Whuan Bentley If we look at the league as an "efficient marketplace" which favors youth, even taking into account that FA get overpaid, Kirksey's contract history says GMs think he's average or above. He HAS struggled with injuries, starting in 2018 after the Browns drafted Baker and the hope was they were going somewhere (and it looked as though they switched back to 3-4?). Was he trying to "play up to his contract" or find an extra gear to help the Browns to a winning season, and over-extended himself? Milano did this up to 2020, but he seems to have learned to "play within himself" and change up his technique to help this. Last year was the first season in 5 years he managed a full season, and starting the season with an injury issue doesn't bode well. He HAS played on mostly poor defensive squads, though the Browns at least broke even in 2018 (and like I said, had some defensive talent); Green Bay had an OK D in 2020 IIRC. The Texans also showed flashes towards the end of last season. To me, this is similar to signing AJ Klein in 2020, when Klein was 29 and just off 2 years starting with the Saints (though we paid Klein a lot more). What I want to know is what kind of player is Kirksey? What I mean by that is, in Klein we got below average native athleticism combined with above-average knowledge of the game and ability to read and react to his keys quickly ("Coach Klein" as Micah Hyde calls him), plus willingness to THUMP as a tackler. What I'm looking for is some info on what kind of player Kirksey is in that regard?

Kid seems to have some pocket presence.

If it was a Grade 2 type strain, I think that's usually about a month injury. He apparently was injured just a few days into training camp, so having him pretty much healed and ready to start bringing himself into playing shape about now is reasonable. Happy Birthday to You, Christian Kirksey! I'm curious about this "not a particularly good player" thing. He started his career on some absolute "Factory of Sadness" Browns teams, earned a 2nd contract, then started to struggle with injuries. Last season was the first time in 5 years he played a full season. Usually guys who are "not particularly good players" don't keep getting chances from various teams once the injury bug bites and they're cut loose. So I'm wondering what more you can say. He just spent the last month in the training room. He needs to get into shape as well as learn the playbook. I think you're mistaken.

On the one hand, the Texans signed a couple FA and drafted a LB in the 5th round so they actually had some competition at LB. On the other hand, he was beat out by 10 year vet Denzel Perryman. On the third hand, he was injured for all 3 preseason games so he didn't put any tape down that other teams could evaluate. I'm happy about the signing of a capable vet MLB to our practice squad - someone who has started a season more recently (2022) than Klein (2018, 2019) I'm a little freaked out by the fans here annointing him immediately as our starter. I don't want to be "that Guy" but he did just get cut by the team that drafted #2 overall

He can't be poached unless we elevate him more than 3x after the trade deadline when ALL players are subject to waivers OR He chooses to go Practice squad players are FA, they can choose whether to go or to say "no, I'm good".