Beck Water

Yes, we can agree on that last. If everyone on this board stopped commenting on issues where we don't know the background, wouldn't about 99.9% of the board go away? That includes people commenting on things that are "outside their lane" (which I said in my last post is where I am at this point) or where their knowledge is limited. Not sure I'm seeing the problem with two somewhat-more-knowledgeable-than-general-public posters having a civil b&f discussion about one aspect of a vaguely football-related post? Alloimmunization against platelets was mentioned in one of my responses.

I thought Belichick pretty much had to put up with it? That Kraft was paying Brady under the table by funneling money into the TB12 training facility owned by Brady and Guerrero? Until Guerrero went too far by flat out telling certain players to not follow Patriots medical team advice, and Brady went too far by pretty much telling players to get treatment with Guerrero if they wanted his attention? Well...the Broncos surely didn't trade for Wilson and pay him the big bucks so they could sit in the cellar of the AFC West. The current storyline is, it's not Russ Wilson's fault, Nathaniel Hackett was a mess. So I wouldn't give odds against Wilson being Scapegoat Number 1. Payton's ethical standards can be described in one word: Bountygate

I can see Payton's point. It's not as bad as Brady with his fitness guru/trainer Alex Guerrero, where he and Guerrero had their own company but he was allowed access to the Patriots facility and even use of the rooms and equipment, and players said they felt pressured to sign up with Guerrero or that Guerrero would contradict instructions from the Patriots trainers/S&C staff At least, as far as we know. But I can 100% see not wanting an independent parallel staff for the QB. I do wonder if it will "stick" though.

I'm guessing here, but I'd bet a beer that it's No Such Thing. Isn't Wilson the one who has his own entourage - mental coach, mechanics coach, massage therapist, trainer - and insisted on bringing them into the building? My guess is that the reason the Broncos went for someone relatively inexperienced is to get someone who won't butt heads with those guys or with Wilson, but who will be high-energy about helping Wilson with anything he wants to do, chopping film up however Wilson wants it chopped, and super tactful with anything he points out instead of lacing it with ego. Webb would probably fit the needs of that package (see what I did there? and yeah I know it was Joe)

Yeah, there we're "out of my lane". 30 cc sounds like a lot for a type and cross; back in da day we pulled a 6 ml tube and I would think it's more efficient/less needed now a days. If I'm remembering my time in pediatric lab medicine, a newborn full term baby only has about 250 cc of blood total, so a 25 week fetus maybe what, half that? I don't really know. It didn't strike me as intrinsically unreasonable that 30 cc might be enough to make a significant difference partway through a pregnancy.

You know, I actually took the time to listen to what Josh actually said and transcribe, which requires several back and forth. That's actually the very opposite of the normal meaning of gaslighting. Mischaracterizing what I've said in this way does not reflect well on your credibility as someone to have discussion with; just what exactly are you trying to accomplish here? And you still haven't answered my question. It's not rocket science: 1) How do you think he's putting up the rush yards AND passing yards (not to mention stiff arming and trucking) against defensive players, some of whom are noted "workout warriors", if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness (aerobic and strength) prior to the season? 2) Josh is the active player with most consecutive starts. It seems pretty well established that athletes who are ill conditioned or under-trained can be more prone to injury under extreme exertion, while athletes who are rigorous about strengthening stabilizer muscles and maintaining flexibility can avoid or minimize injury. How do you think Josh is achieving these consecutive starts, if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness prior to the season? Don't shift the frame of the discussion, I'm not claiming Josh is an "elite off season warrior", that's not what this is about.

I think Josh is talking about taking ~10 weeks "mostly" off, not 5 months off. Between the end of the season and phase 1 OTAs. That's from careful listening to the interviews people are slinging from. Whether he does enough in the rest of the time, who knows? So far, he doesn't seem to be pulling a Roethlisberger, but you have a valid point that if he in fact is taking 5 months off from position-specific strength and flexibility training, that will come. I would still like to learn your examples of modern-day elite professional athletes who don't train and get by on native athleticism.

Hank Aaron smoked cigarettes. "Greatest Diver of All Time" Greg Louganis acknowledges that he not only smoked, he was an alcoholic and used drugs until just before his first Olympic games. Yet times have changed. The #2 guy on various Olympic teams now starts his dive list with degree of difficulty dives that were Louganis best, and goes up in difficulty from there. The "new normal" has become higher DOD. Same with football - time was when guys would have off-season jobs to get by. Not now, and in general NFL athletes are bigger, stronger, faster than they were even 2 decades ago. I agree that genetics do play a huge role, but I think a lot of that role is getting athletes into the "elite of the elite", the top guys in the NFL. Serious question, what modern elite athletes (Olympic, professional) are 5-7 years into a career and one of the best at their chosen sport, without serious sport-specific training in the off season to build a base? Let's say, in the last 20 years. As I said to BadOl, this isn't an argument, it's a question. Who? I think "rippling muscles" are over perceived as a correlate to functional strength. I think guys who have rippling muscles, generally train for rippling muscles; guys who are photographed with rippling muscles also set that up carefully. But that doesn't mean guys with high functional strength but no rippling muscles don't train, and train hard. Josh's background "growing up and working on a farm" has been overblown in the media. I'm sure he did stuff at need, but Josh's family was really the local landed gentry. I believe it was his grandfather who donated the land for the high school. Josh talked about playing every sport he could -swimming, baseball, basketball, football - in part because if he were involved in sports, he got out of farm work. It's not like his parents were pulling him away from sports to go move irrigation pipe or hoe the fields or harvest the cantaloupes.

If you were one of those claiming Josh said he wasn't a big film watcher, you didn't. in fact, hear what you think you heard. I don't think you've answered my question. We're talking about a QB who regularly outmaneuvers and outruns the elite of the elite, professional NFL football players. These aren't just "sweaty gymrats" and it's not just "sometimes", so it's pretty unreasonable to characterize it as "outruns sweaty gymrats sometimes". Leaving aside the question of what you heard Josh say and whether it means what you think it means, what IS your answer to my questions? I'll recap them here for your convenience: 1) How do you think he's putting up the rush yards AND passing yards (not to mention stiff arming and trucking) against defensive players, some of whom are noted "workout warriors", if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness (aerobic and strength) prior to the season? 2) Josh is the active player with most consecutive starts. It seems pretty well established that athletes who are ill conditioned or under-trained can be more prone to injury under extreme exertion, while athletes who are rigorous about strengthening stabilizer muscles and maintaining flexibility can avoid or minimize injury. How do you think Josh is achieving these consecutive starts, if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness prior to the season? Step away from what you think you heard Josh say, and just explain to me how it makes sense to you in light of these factual observations? Again as I said to BadOl, this isn't an argument, it's a question. If you're a rational person capable of interesting discussion, you must have some answer for this. What is it?

Yeah, I don't go with the "Bills fans should never complain" bit. What I don't like is when people distort something and run with it, ie ""yeah" to "big film watcher?" and "I don't overwatch film" becomes "Josh said he's not a big film watcher". "Don't do really anything" (as far as strength training) before OTA (April 17th). "Used to throw and work out 4x week like OTA all off season, still throw a little bit, work out a little bit" becomes "Josh said he doesn't work out all off season" and "Josh said he doesn't lift weights". Josh not talking about training with Palmer or Flaherty becomes "Josh no longer trains with him". Anything accurate and reality based is fair game IMHO. And who knows, maybe Josh should be doing more than whatever he is; I dunno.

I agree that from a medical POV the situation is not clear. But I think she probably is talking about a treatment for fetal anemia or similar condition: https://www.northwell.edu/obstetrics-and-gynecology/treatments/fetal-blood-transfusions or if you want something more technical https://www.transfusionguidelines.org/transfusion-handbook/10-effective-transfusion-in-paediatric-practice/10-1-fetal-transfusion One of the indications for this is Rh incompatibility between mother and fetus (or a similar principle involving alloimmunization against platelets), so the mother's blood most definitely can not be used. Agree, other donors should be possible.

Thanks @Doc Brown. Now we're getting somewhere. After the stuff about "Josh said he's not a big film guy on Pat McAfee" when, if we listen to Pat McAfee, he nodded and said "Yeah" to that question, and then gave a limit that he doesn't like to "overwatch", I think it's probably important to be careful about what was said. So let's go look at that segment and see what Josh actually said. If anyone cares, it starts at 1:07:07. He says it's changed. He used to throw and work out 4x a week, it was like he was in OTAs all off season, now it's like "just get away" (there's an interlude of banter) 1:08 back to Josh. "In the off season, get away, try not to do as much...still throw a little bit, work out a little bit, try to maintain weight" (so we've gone from "I don't work out" to "I don't throw and work out 4x a week.......try not to do as much....still throw and work out "a little bit", whatever that means) "My strength coaches are going to hate that I say this, but the last two off seasons I haven't done really anything before OTAs when we have baseline tests, in both years I've come back and I've tested way higher than I've tested in my entire career". This raises two questions for me: 1) what does Josh mean by "OTAs"? The Bills come back to the facility for a 2 week "phase 1" program starting April 17th. I think that's when they do the baseline tests. So fundamentally, Josh may be talking about taking 10 weeks off (from January 23 to April 17), during which he still "throws a little bit, works out a little bit" (whatever that means - not 4x a week, is it 1x a week? 2x a week? Once in a blue moon?). Does he do his rehab program? We hope so. It makes a lot of sense to take 8-10 weeks off throwing and hard weight training to heal and recover. Grade 2 muscle strains are said to take up to 3 months to fully heal, and being fully healed, they'd be stronger. 2) what does "really anything" mean, as in"I haven't done really anything before OTAs"? He's talked in the past about training with Ryan Flaherty, who he credits with improving him as a runner and helping him be strong, but flexible to avoid injury. Flaherty has specific QB programs involving trap bar deadlifts and box squats for the lower body, and a bunch of training involving bands and single leg exercises; then he has specific shoulder and upper-body strengthening exercises involving plyometric pushups and bands. I think it's a safe guess Josh is not doing trap bar deadlifts and box squats before OTAs. Is he still doing band training and plio as part of rehab and to maintain flexibility? Traditional strength coaches don't necessarily think much of band exercises and so forth. "Really anything" covers a lot of ground. In any event, I think we can all agree that Josh says he doesn't follow a rigorous training program from the end of the season, to April 17 (10 weeks). He does by his own words "throw a little bit, work out a little bit". He may be doing a rehab program, but he's not strength training. And he comes back healed and strong. Then from April 17th on, what is he doing? We're really talking about 3 weeks between April 28 and May 22, then 5 weeks between June 15 and July 25. I don't think Josh is too specific about that, in this segment. Maybe he's sitting on a sofa drinking beer between golf games and commercial recordings; maybe he's training with Flaherty or Jordan Palmer and getting his motion digitally mapped and tuned up. There was mention of some of the guys (Kincaid was one) out in California throwing with Josh for a couple weeks, getting ready for training camp, in July. Maybe that's really an excuse for a kegger. TL;DR I've said elsewhere Josh says takes time initially in the off-season. He says his mindset is "just get away" and he "still throws and works out a little bit", but he doesn't do "really anything" before OTA (mid April). Then there's the question of what he does from that point on, which I don't think he addresses too specifically in this point. Maybe he sits on the sofa and drinks shots of whisky in between golf games. Maybe he returns to train with Flaher Bear and Palmer (I think it's the latter, but who knows?)

Who do you mean by "trailer boys"? Maybe what we need here is some definition. We both agree he said he takes time off, and the last two years he took more time off for recovery. How do you define or think Josh defines "off season"?

It's not an argument, it's a question. "Great athletes can eat terribly and not workout much at all and be dominant on the field/court... outperforming and recovering from injury faster than some workout warriors." OK - who are these athletes known to be in the modern era of professional sports (say, last 10-15 years)?

Could you please answer the question? How do you think he's putting up the rush yards AND passing yards (not to mention stiff arming and trucking) against defensive players who often show themselves dripping with sweat and pumping iron on social media, if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness (aerobic and strength) prior to the season? Like I said, just step away for a second from the question of whether you and others are accurately representing what "Josh says about Josh", and just tell me how you makes sense of those little facts, if Josh does not train hard and work out? Then we can move on to him being the active player with most consecutive starts. It seems pretty well established that athletes who are ill conditioned or under-trained can be more prone to injury. So how do you reconcile that? Again, step away from what you think you heard Josh say, and just explain to me how it makes sense to you in light of these factual observations?

I don't know about PFF pass defense grades. But last season, Kirksey had a passer rating of 90.1 against him. That's 132nd in the league. Completion percentage against him was 75%. For comparison, Tremaine Edmunds had a passer rating of 69.9 against him, Milano 62.6 (#13 in the league), Poyer 60.1 (#8 in the league) And in McDermott's defense, linebackers most definitely have to do both.

I wouldn't assume that the playbook isn't essentially the one he had with Hackett in Green Bay. Why wouldn't it be? If I'm correct, the issue isn't Rodgers mastering the playbook, the issue is "have WR not named Cobb and Lazard mastered the playbook? Has Dalvin Cook mastered the playbook? Is the OL all on the same page with the protections?" I'm no DC, but that's what I'd probe into trying to exploit. Rodgers was very effective against the blitz in GB because he knew what his answers were, and his receivers knew what they were supposed to do to be answers. If the Bills D can throw a monkey wrench into those works, should be interesting.

Let me just step away for a second from the question of whether you and others are accurately representing what "Josh says about Josh", which, to me, is still a very valid question given how I *know* a recent article on film got distorted. Let's just go with some facts: 1) Josh was the #38 in the league last year in rush YPG. Not of QB - that's all runners. 47.6 YPG. 2) Josh was #6 in the league last year in passing YPG, 267.7 YPG That means he combines the contributions of a good RB with a top QB. In addition, he is frequently observed to evade, stiff-arm, and outright truck defensive players. Now I have a question: How do you think he's doing that against defensive players who often show themselves dripping with sweat and pumping iron on social media, if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness (aerobic and strength) prior to the season? I'll hang up and listen.

Hi. https://www.buffalobills.com/video/one-bills-live-jordan-palmer-on-working-with-josh-and-kyle-allen Palmer talks about working with Josh Allen (not as long duration as he used to, due to playing in January and needing time for physical and mental recovery) and using the video they generate to coach him on mechanics Mon-Tues during the season. Now I put this up on another thread and folks all interpreted it "oh, I thought they danced around if he works with Jordan" or truncated it "oh he only worked with him for a couple weeks" but neither of those viewpoints appear to me to be supported by the actual interview. As far as Josh really improving, that seemed to come when Chris Hess of Biometric (at Palmer's arrangement) mapped his throwing motion in the 2020 off season. That helped Josh identify that he was actually not using his lower body in his throwing, and he re-worked his throwing motion. He discussed still doing this on his interview with Pat McAfee

Please tell us where Allen described his lack of working out. I had a little look around at Kyle Brandt's Basement from this off-season and can not find such a thing. Thanks.

And @JohninMinn. vaults to the easy lead in the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity Challenge!

Probably anyone can be "had" if you jack the price up high enough But Beane was handing out monopoly money this off season

Well you'll find the wet spot Oh...wait...was that my OUTER voice? Well, it's not *my* best counterpoint, but since it's obviously true, why should it upset a soul? Truth hurts.... I'm having trouble parsing "let alone start the same to ally lake thread"

I think this is a fair perspective. It also sounds as though Josh has started thinking about it. I actually agree that Josh doesn't come across well in this interview. Comes across as very golf-focused and kind of fratt-y with the getting super drunk and having personal oxygen bottles and pedialyte to recover. News flash, Josh, acetaldyhyde is toxic and getting rid of the headache does not get rid of all the persistent effects. Part of it is where the interviewers led him though. I thought the whole podcast didn't come across well. It was kind of a snooze-fest to me, actually, yattering on about golf courses and so forth. I don't think either Kyle or Jordan are particularly gifted interviewers. I felt Kyle and Jordan Palmer exploited their "insider status" as close friends of Josh Allen to bring out somewhat embarrassing anecdotes that they wouldn't be able to bring out about other QBs with whom they are NOT as "close friends" and don't see those private moments, and that objectively, really wasn't well done of them.

Thanks for doing this! Good thread start. My honest answers to these put me squarely in the "Hopeful" camp. I'm going to go with Kincaid. I think a solid rookie performance from our best candidate for filling that need over the middle would go a long way to improve the Bills offense. Hope we can all say "our Kinc is OK!" after this season. Torrance good choice though. I hope it's Connor McGovern. We really need to solidify that IOL I'm really in "hopeful" mode. I'm going to say "James Cook, and it's not close". The reason this is hopeful is that it would mean we have more of a running game, and we need less blocking from our backs. Cook is not "all that" in pass pro, whereas Harris can do it. I'm also skeptical on Harris injury history Trent Sherfield. I'm not sure I can call Davis a "dark horse" by my understanding of the term. He's going into the season as our #2 WR for the 2nd year and much is expected. Potential to overtake him: Ryan Van Demark. The OBD crew was surprised that the Bills cut Quessenberry loose to keep Van Demark, especially as he seems just progressing in his ability to play RT. If he comes on at RT, I would like to see him challenge Brown. That would be a real "Dark Horse", didn't see that coming, deal! Excellent choice. No argument on Floyd. I may go with Kingsley Jonathan though. Again, when a guy has Floyd's performance history, is he really a dark horse? May be a quibble. But Hard to argue with this. Ultimately, as VM goes, so may go the Bills season. I would say if Dawson doesn't get the numbers, it's likely to be because Spencer Brown sucks at RT and we're keeping him in to chip/release or just block. Which brings me to my choice for this: Spencer Brown.