Beck Water

Ultimately, it was likely a McDermott decision. But after the Patriots game where Josh threw 3 picks, Josh spoke of having long conversations with McDermott and Beane and making promises to them. It's not a huge stretch to think that part of the convo was a chance for Josh to give input on what was working well for him, what could be done better, and what could help him improve. When Daboll moved upstairs to the coach's box prior to the following week, the reason given at the time was to see if he could see the field better and if that would help get plays in more quickly. At the time, there had been buzz about play calls coming late (Kelly advised Josh to "just call your own play if the play call is late"). Being a good 'leader of men', my guess is that McDermott didn't call Daboll in and say "Buddy, you're moving to the box where you can't be seen reaming out your QB in public". Rather, he probably laid out some issues (play calls are sometimes late; we tell the players to put bad plays behind them and move on, but when you're yelling on the sideline, it gives the impression you're not moving on yourself) and put out "why don't we try having you move upstairs to the coach's box where you have a better view of the field? if it works, stay there, if you don't like it, we'll revisit" as a potential solution, and offered something like "when I was DC, I found being up in the box helped me move on to the next play more readily" as a potential benefit.

In "not wildly different", the "wildly" seems like a bit of a weasel word in that any differences one points out can be dismissed as "well, OK, it's different, but not WILDLY". Can you provide a bit of clarity about what "wildly different" means to you? It's a valid point that some folks here go nuts with "fire xxxx" threads whenever there's a bad game or two. I think Allen and Daboll was a mutual benefit. I think Allen is hard headed, based on some stories Allen himself tells, as well as some told by his college coach. There's a joke about the reliable mule trained with loving kindness: the trainer goes out to the mule (after the new owner can't get him to move) and whacks the mule between the ears with a board, to the new owner's chagrin: "I thought you said he was trained with loving kindness?" "Oh, he was....but first, you have to get his attention!". Allen learned a lot from Daboll after Daboll had his attention. From press conferences plus stats, it's pretty clear that a major point of contention between McDermott and Daboll was the run game. McDermott knew, as a DC, that *some* threat of a run game is essential to keep defenses honest and would comment unfavorably post-loss on the low number of rush attempts at times. Daboll would comment that it's all very well and good to talk about balance, until one thing just doesn't work and then you better have more of the other. It might be fair to say McDermott talked about wanting to be able to run, but Beane (presumably with McDermott's guidance) did not prioritize the resources in terms of OL and RB (neither Moss nor Singletary had the speed to turn the corner outside) to actually make it happen. Someone, I believe it may have been @BADOLBILZ, also commented to the effect that Daboll was willing to run Allen into the ground at the risk of Allen's career longevity, in order to pave his way to a HC position. Cynical, but a viewpoint that may have some truth to it. Anyway, with Murray and Cook at RB and McGovern and O'Torrence on the IOL, it looks as though we may finally have the personnel to have a run game, and that's where Dorsey has the potential to differentiate his offense. That's a positive difference. Another difference I believe is becoming a theme, is that Dorsey draws up plays to attack defenses - he will combine man-beater and different zone-beater concepts in the same play - whereas Daboll would draw up plays to scheme players open against a specific defense. The obvious flaw in the latter, is if the defense isn't correctly identified pre-snap, the play could leave no good options; the obvious flaw in the former, is that it relies on all the players running routes to be able to get open against the coverage they face. This appears to be a Bad Plan for, basically, everyone on the roster right now but Diggs. It also seems to me that Dorsey relies less on pre-snap motion and trickery.

If people click on the table, it will enlarge (at least, on a computer, it will). You might put "click to enlarge" in your post. What are the 16th 13th T2 3rd etc above the column headings? Thanks! Kelce is clearly and has been the #1 receiver on the Chiefs for several years. So I disagree that it's "fair" to keep TE out of the conversation when they're clearly functioning as WR and leading the team.

Agree on the skepticism and the usefulness Didn't work with 'Mad Mike' Martz LOL

Hmmmmmm. We do remember that in 2021 under Daboll, the Bills lost to the Jags 6-9 and got blown out by the Colts 15-41, and there were "fire Daboll" threads on this board on a regular basis after games where the offense "laid an egg"? We had no run game.... We do know that the Giants are 1-5 right?

If we're counting, I'm pretty sure McDermott did a lot for Daboll (and, Daboll did a lot for him) - starting with McDermott hired him to coach a talented rookie QB. Daboll's record as an OC prior to Buffalo was so poor many questioned that decision, and indeed, he did appear to learn on the job as we went. I also don't know how you get the "not a likeable guy". He's intense, but he does come across as caring about people. My guess would be he compartmentalizes pretty fiercely.

I thought the INT was bad.

So I've been giving this some thought. I'm influenced by the Cover1 piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRlDxAZ2IAI and some other all-22 I've watched. I think there are 3 parts to the problem: 1) Josh. a) Josh is fibbing to us in press conferences saying "if Diggs is the first read and he's open, I throw to him". True and appropriate, but not always. It's pretty plain in the film cutup above, that at times Josh is ignoring a far more open receiver to throw to a double or even triple covered Diggs. He needs to cut that out. b) fast decisions to take what the defense gives him need to improve. Sometimes Josh, under immediate pressure, could take a quick dump-off to Cook or Knox but still passes them up to extend the play and try to force the ball to Diggs, especially if Diggs is deep. He still wants those aggressive chunk plays, when sometimes he needs to move the chains c)trust the run more. RPO, light box, take the RUN option, don't try to throw it to Diggs. 2) Our personnel. In 2020, when teams tried to cover us with man, we had Diggs who could still get open, Sanders could open, McKenzie could run away from them. Seeing too many plays where it's man, and no one is open enough that Josh takes them. This is pretty simple - we need to figure out who on the team CAN get open against man besides Diggs, and put them in position to get open. Harty isn't doing it from the LOS, he needs to be off it, or we need some pick plays, or something. Or maybe he's lost 3 steps and he's just a dud, I don't know - he kind of looks to me like 2022 Beasley, not explosive and way too slow. 3) Dorsey, or how Dorsey is allowing the WR coach to implement his play designs (either way it goes to Dorsey). I really hate some of the route combos and how they're being run. Instead of stretching the defenders all over the field, it seems too often we're bunching them up. Kurt Warner did a piece on this after the Jets game showing how the depth of route impacted the defenders. And several guys have had good points - we don't have (enough) motion, we don't have trickery, we aren't scheming guys open (see point 2 above). So what are my solutions? 1) Well, a lot of times what I've seen is that Josh's option in structure is a quick flat route by Cook - and if Diggs is tripled and everyone else is locked down, Cook has grass in front of him. Josh needs to TAKE THAT and trust his guys to get YAC. 2) Dorsey needs to look at some film cutups with a defensive coordinator and get input on improving the depth of routes and the combination of routes, to better stretch the defense, instead of having everyone all in one spot. He also needs to bring out and dust off some plays that will scheme the personnel we have open against man coverage, be that giving Harty a free release, or letting Harty or Sherfield go deep if he's putting Diggs in the backfield and letting him run option routes. 3) Figure out who Josh trusts and play them. Seriously - if Josh doesn't trust Knox, sit him and put in Morris or a 6th OLman. I don't think Fournette is the answer.

I have no problem with the Bills moving on from McKenzie. I have my receipts of what I've said on the subject (and in this thread). McKenzie got his chance to show he could be a full-time slot receiver, and he didn't come through. Next. I do have a problem with labeling everything you can a "boneheaded play" from your departed whipping boy, and not even remembering the genuine gaffes Hardy has been observed to make in his limited time with the Bills. It's illogical to label a guy who is really not seeing the field very much, and who has had mistakes when he does, "more reliable". You don't care about a drop, but maybe you should. Maybe the coaches do; maybe it reflects what he's doing in practice. Can Harty be a better player? Yes, he potentially does have a higher ceiling. Better routes, better ball tracking ability. He needs to prove he is able to keep that "best ability is availability" thing going on. But mostly for whatever reason, he hasn't earned enough playing time to show what he is or can be here, one way or another. So when you spend 3x as much money, on a guy who is on the field 60% less, and you only have $1.8M cap space, yeah, the best I can give it is "jury's still out".

So there you have it, folks.

For those of you scoring, compare and contrast Daboll post-game with Josh Allen vs post-game with Tyrod Taylor:

He was released, but it turned out to just be a roster manipulation move at roster cutdown, so that they could get a guy onto IR eligible to return. Resigned the next day, been returning punts and doing gadget plays for them. And the drop.....

Don't like that news about Dalton Kincaid, although if the Bills did Victory Monday and then take Tues off, it doesn't matter....he is hopefully close, since he was practicing last week. And for the Dorsey tar-and-pitchforks crowd: John Wawrow, Tim Graham, and at least one other reporter pushed McDermott pretty hard this point in various permutations. But I guess we ride-n-die with Dorsey, so to speak. On the other hand, there's this: I saw that there's already an "on to the Pats" topic, but a quick review showed it's ~4 pages of Giants post-game stuff so I thought it might be nice to start new.

I could be an outlier, but I think it may have had less to do with a grudge, and more to do with the way the Giants players played us. Tripping, throwing our RT down, stomping on players etc. The D is more Wink Martindale's territory but Daboll is the HC and "the buck stops here"

Yeah, I was paying attention because it interested me. During his 4 years in Buffalo, it was like Daboll went to Charm School. You could see it in his pressers. 2018 and early 2019, he was curt and veered close to throwing players under the bus (Beasley deflected catch that went for a pick-6: "maybe the throw is a little low, you still have to catch it"). By the time he left, he was relaxed, he acted as though he were personally concerned about each reporter's health, he was gracious, he seemed fun. I can't say it was McDermott, but someone during Daboll's time in Buffalo re-cast him. Dick Vermeil used to send his coaching assistants to Dale Carnegie, wouldn't surprise me if McDermott did something similar. Daboll came to Buffalo with a reputation for screaming and yelling at his players. In particular, he was reported to be ridiculously brutal to Colt McCoy: https://sports.yahoo.com/ms-silver_colt_mccoy_browns_brian_daboll_112411.html Josh Allen tells a story his rookie year about going off-script and having Daboll just launch into him, screaming at him through the helmet radio, then calming down on the sideline, then thinking about it and coming back to scream at him some more. He was seen screaming at Josh in 2019 during the NE game, at the same time that there were complaints about delays getting plays called. After that, Daboll went up to the booth and he never game down. I agree with you, not just sports but any venue, screaming and yelling at someone in public does not help performance I think McDermott is probably very intense, and a player knows when he's "on the carpet" but he doesn't need to scream in public to convey that impression.

It looked as though Daboll was prepared to put a bit more time into it and McDermott brusqued off. I wonder if McDermott had an issue with some of the things that were going down on the field, maybe as a result of how the Giants players were being coached to play against us? Yes.

Wow, that's Brady-esque except that McDermott won the game. I think I looked in the dictionary and saw that exchange under the word "perfunctory"

FWIW, Knox has 25 targets and Kincaid 19. That's more than any receiver not named Diggs or Davis (and Knox is only 5 targets behind Davis) The problem with Knox is that he's back down at a 56% catch rate after improving to 69% and 74% in 2021 and 2022; he's also back up to a 12% drop % after bringing it down to 5-6% the last 2 years. 3 drops out of 25 targets is no bueno.

When Erik shows the EZ view there's a clear window and throwing lane to Shakir. The RPO at 10:00 where Josh pulls it and throws to Diggs when there's a light box and Cook could get some yards has me SMH

Some truth there. A number of people, however, have commented that he just doesn't look as fast as he did in 2021. It's actually kind of puzzling that the Bills are using Diggs on some of the quick "out" routes and such that I thought would be going to Harty. It makes me wonder what's going on in practice. I don't know how you'd tell if Harty is "more reliable" or not, when we're not seeing much of him. He does have a drop, and it was a bad one. As far as contract, we're gonna have to agree to disagree about what's "not much". When the team has like $1.8M in cap space and has injured players dropping like flies, an extra $3M cap space could come in mighty handy.

The post to which I'm responding, you made the statement that the Bills offense was one of the most productive, more productive actually, before Dorsey. Since you can't pull 2 full years of Dorsey yet, it seems reasonable to look at 2021 (Daboll's last year) and 2022 (Dorsey's first year) and compare - no? Or how else are you comparing, to be able to make that statement, since (again) you don't have 2 full seasons of Dorsey to compare? False. Josh has gotten hurt when he's running. He's also gotten hurt outside the pocket, but behind the LOS, trying to extend the play.

The problem I have with Harty is how much we're paying him compared to how much we're using him. $3.745M cap this year, $5.365 next year. He's on track for a 34 reception, 300 yd, 3 TD, 17 1D season playing 21% of the snaps. The oft-maligned McKenzie put up 42 receptions, 423 yds, 30 1D and 5 TD for just a fraction over vet minimum last season. Harty is being more efficient per-snap since McKenzie saw 54% of the offensive snaps to put up that production, but it's kind of strange to me that we're paying like 3x as much to a guy we use less than half as much.

Harty may be fine, Harty may not be fine, but we don't know because he's seeing a whopping 21% of the snaps thus far this season - 16% vs. the Giants.

Still listed on the Colts roster, so No.

This.