Beck Water

Do you think, I don't know, there might be some kind of middle ground here? Like, I don't know, having a handful (or even 25) people with whom one had conflict over the years, doesn't mean the person is completely incapable of relating to and forming relationships with others?

Right. So I'm talking about a part of it that was quoted - in fact, you quoted it. What's your point? To borrow your attitude here, are you saying you quoted it incorrectly or omitted a key part of the incident?

Obviously Diggs was brought in as a star on a big contract, and has had top-of-the-league performance that makes him desirable to other teams and drives his contract negotiations. But consider this: Hall was grading the WR position group in practice and games, and had input into decisions about whether and to what extent the group needed upgrades in FA and the draft. What if Hall's grades of Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie influenced the team's decision to go into the 2022 season with Gabe Davis as the #2 and Isaiah McKenzie as the slot, with no improvements besides Jamison Crowder and a 5th round rookie? What if Hall's grades during in-season practices influenced keeping McKenzie (part of the truck-buying crew) on the field and Shakir (not) on the bench? I'm not saying that the receivers intended the truck as a bribe, or that Hall looked at McKenzie and consciously thought "that guy participated in giving me a truck so Imma grade him better". But it's been extensively studied that how people treat us does influence how we perceive them, so there's that.

That's the sticking point I have with what I've seen of Dunne's article. He's clearly giving voice to one strong POV/interpretation about the situation - that McDermott was a dick who rained on a sweet, heartwarming gesture because he was, essentially, an insecure jellyfish who is mentally psychologically and physically able to form relationships with players. But there are other POV on the situation, which is that Hall was violating Covid rules by having a gathering, and that to accept a valuable gift from men you're supposed to be impartially grading every week and giving input to the coaches about, has a problematic side. Others can disagree, but those POV honestly exist. And those aren't very hard to perceive, really, but Dunne neither presents them as his own considered thoughts, nor apparently spoke with anyone who might present them (or if he did, he edited them out).

Correct. 4-12 following 8-8 got Reid the boot in Philly. Give it a rest. If you can't understand what's been several times explained by two people (that no one thinks the players intended it as a bribe), at least pretend.

With this I agree. But can you acknowledge that there's a lot of space between being a "prick" to your guys, and being so well liked that they gift you a truck?

@GoBills808, what crawled into you tonight? You're usually quite a reasonable poster with takes I like to read and who can engage in a good discussion where points get acknowledged and debated. Today, your responses seem like they're firing right left and long of the post you're responding to, and either deliberately not acknowledging or unable to recognize the point. It was said on social media that they were at a Christmas party at Hall's house when they brought him outside to see his truck. So they were inside, at a party. I Give Up. If you started here, it might be worth trying to engage, but since you started with "you think it's a bribe" to @HardyBoy (AFTER he explicitly said he didn't for one moment believe that), and then moved on to "it's only problematic because you guys feel it is" (ignoring any basis we stated)....yeah, I'm Out. You win. Feel good about that.

I hesitate to speak for @HardyBoy, but to the extent that I've opined here, that's not what I'm saying. And @HardyBoy has explictly said something to the effect of "I don't suppose for one minute the truck was intended as a bribe". So it's kind of weird that you come back with this. Let's assume that the hearts of the WR were totally pure. They LOVED their WR coach, they really felt he made a difference to them all, and they wanted to make him a gift he would truly appreciate. So they hatched the idea to get him a truck. The coach or coaches Dunne quoted saw it as an unmixed bag of Cool Beans "It's impossible for any sane person to watch this heartwarming video and not feel happy for Hall." Well, I'd like to think I'm a sane person and when I watched that video, honest to God I felt horror that the NFL was going to gobsmack the Bills for violating Covid rules. So that's one thing. It seems a legit concern for a HC to feel at the time, given that the NFL forced Denver to play without QB. What if the Bills being forced to play a game without any WR flashed before McDermott's eyes? Would that be legit cause to be "not pleased" by Hall having them all over to his house? The other point that is trying to be made here is that while the WR may have intended it as a gesture of pure love and respect, from the POV of a buck-stopping people manager, it factually has its problematic side, no matter how pure the intent was. And the stuff about why McDermott reacted negatively (jealous of a relationship he is mentally physically and psychologically incapable of) is purely the interviewee's opinion/interpretation, which I would call an attack on McD's character. The part about "zero relationship with the offensive players, none" seems to be contradicted by several instances and pieces of information.

Exactly. Consider Andy Reid. According to some Philly fan friends, back in 2007 when a judge was sentencing his sons Garrett and Britt to jail and referring to Reid's home as a "Drug Emporium" and the Reids as a "family in crisis", the word about Reid was "not good enough" as a HC. After all, between 2001 and 2004 when the Eagles lost 3 conference championships and a Superbowl, 2 of the 3 conf. losses were Thumpings and the SB loss showed Reid had poor gameday management and just couldn't Git 'Er Done. Now they knew why: his home life was a mess and he failed as a father. It was controversial (according to my friend) that Reid was retained, especially when the Eagles went 8-8 that year and 9-6-1 the next (and lost another conf. champ). Then there was the year the Reid-coached Chiefs lost in the playoffs AGAIN, and Dungy pronounced "the Kansas City Chiefs may win a championship, but it won't be with Andy Reid as their coach" Winning changes everything

Thank you for pointing this out. I acknowledge I haven't read the entire article and I'm not gonna subscribe to do so. But from what's been quoted and brought out, there's a weird gamish: 1) stuff that factually happened (9/11 as teamwork example, McDermott upset about Hall having a WR get together at Hall's house during covid and WR having such friendly feelings towards Hall that they gifted him a truck) 2) the interpretation the sources placed on things that happened (McDermott dunked on Hall for getting a truck because according to the source, McDermott is personally incapable of having close relationships with players and jealous of coaches who can) I don't think Dunne is making stuff up, and I think the stuff that he says happened, probably happened in some form. I think the interpretations placed on it, may or may not have veracity or be heavily skewed by the choice of sources.

Don't Know.

I don't know if it's true, but someone upthread said Dunne is close to disgruntled ex-employees Doug Whaley and Russ Brandon. He's also had ex-employee Jim Monos on his show a fair bit. I agree that it's probably looking out for Dunne's bottom line in drawing in subscribers rather than motivated as a hit piece but if two align, well.... ....and the Conspiracy Theorist at the back of my skull keeps poking me and saying "what if someone on the Chiefs paid Dunne off?"

I mean, Josh Allen has Justin Bieber and Frank Sinatra, so not sure of your point? Guys have to have the same musical taste before they can relate to people now?

It's my understanding the position coaches grade their players weekly on practice prep and game performance if they play. They aren't the determining voice as to whether or not a player is active - that would be the OC, DC, ST, HC, and Beane and ultimately HC But, they do have input. SIGNIFICANT input. I agree that if ALL the players were involved equally, it does minimize conflict of interest to some degree. But I can still see why it would be considered problematic: 1) Did the players contribute equally? If so, younger players on PS and cheap rookie deals might potentially feel a bit coerced vs guys on multi-million deals. IF not ad it becomes known, there's that Conflict of Interest risk. 2) Does it change the coaching picture? I could see where the coach might find it harder to "get in the Grill" of a player who, after all, participated in GIVING ME A BRAND NEW TRUCK 3) Then what about next year and the following year? That rookie and the newly-signed vet didn't GIVE YOU A TRUCK, so the conflict of interest is there. Why is Player M seeing the field so much more than Player S, who seems to have higher potential? Is he really grading out better in practice? Or does the truck gift weight the grading? Anyway, other assistant coaches are 100% entitled to feel that the truck was a super-cool super-moving story and McDermott Shat on the parade, but I'm kind of leaning towards the whole picture of what's reasonable, might be a bit more nuanced.

Serious question: How do we know McDermott can't relate to his players?

So there's a difference between stating what happened, and criticizing decisions, and "attacking someone's character". And Dunne's article, what has been shared or I can access, goes far beyond what McDermott said or did. Let's look at the truck story that was just posted above: "Chad Hall played wide receiver, was much closer in age and — clearly — has a gift for managing egos in his room. The Bills receivers loved Hall so much that they bought him a truck for Christmas in 2020. An objectively touching moment that Isaiah McKenzie shared via Instagram. In the dark, in the rain, you see Stefon Diggs and Andre Roberts lead Hall out to the driveway with a beanie over the coach’s eyes. On the audio, Cole Beasley says that this was originally Gabe Davis’ idea and that they all chipped in. It's impossible for any sane person to watch this heartwarming video and not feel happy for Hall." OK, stop right here. When I watched that video, not long after the Titans debacle where they got together outside the facility to practice and Denver being forced to play without a QB - my primary emotion was TERROR. I thought the league would see that video and come down on the Bills like a load of bricks. Then I switched to hoping it would be too bad PR for the league to object to a feel-good moment. Question my sanity if you will. ( Pretty sure I got receipts of this too) "Obviously, this coach had made a profound impact on those receivers’ lives — why anyone gets into coaching in the first place. But Sean McDermott? Oh boy. Sean McDermott was not pleased. One source described this as “a dark day at One Bills Drive.” Not only was the head coach pissed that players were gathering as a group during Covid, McDermott told his staff he pays them to be a coach. Not a friend. Other coaches could not believe his cold response. They had never seen anything like this in their careers." So far we're pretty much at stating what happened and criticizing decisions. The receivers bought Hall a truck, and McDermott was critical because 1) the players were gathering as a group at Hall's house, during Covid - contrary to league rules that other teams had been penalized for 2) he stated that he pays his staff to be a coach, not a friend (and by inference, felt that inspiring the receivers to purchase a truck for him indicated Hall was too much of a friend to the WR group) But here: "He’s insecure. He wants the relationship that he can’t have with the players. Because he’s not physically, mentally, or socially able to.” Can we agree that's going beyond "what happened" or even criticizing McDermott's response as insensitive to Hall and to his assistants, into an attack on his personality and character - "he's physically, mentally, or socially" unable to have a relationship with the players? Again, the fact is that it's a fine line, when you're supervising someone - you want to be friendly and show that you care about them as people, but at the same time, if you get too far into being friends, you make it difficult to get on their case if you need to. How can you bust the chops of a WR for making sloppy cuts, not playing physical against press man, or not using proper hands technique when catching, when he bought you a ***** TRUCK for Christmas? In theory you can, but in practice, will you?

Former reporter for TBN and for Bleacher Report. Good reporter, at his best writing in-depth pieces. He struck out on his own to start a subscription-based sports feature publication called "Go Long" - he's got a website with articles and podcasts and I think if you're a subscriber he emails articles to you. From WNY and makes his home there. I thought it was a brave concept and wished him the best, but I'm not a fan of his implementation.

Anyone want to bet against the chance that Josh McDaniel is a narcissistic control freak? "Narcissist" is a term with a specific psychological meaning that gets thrown around far too widely these days, but to the fundamental point - I think you're exactly correct. Football HC have to be dialed in and focused. The buck stops with them, so yes they want control. Who was Sean McDermott's coaching mentor? Want to bet Andy Reid isn't a demanding control freak? That said: A lot of coaches come in to a team and the team (if it's average) sustains that level or improves the coach's first or second year. They're novel, players want to win, the coaches get the benefit of the doubt ("buy in"). Then the "honeymoon" wears off and the team slumps. Gase got Miami to 10-6 his first season, playoff game, whoo hoo they're on their way. Flores 10-6 the team's second season, likewise whoo hoo. So the difference is, can the team sustain success and build? And McDermott, whatever he is to work for or play for, has managed that for the Bills. I've said it before, I'll say it again, I don't find it difficult to believe that McDermott is a control freak who wants it 'his way or the highway' and who has definite ideas about how things should be done, and definite expectations of being 'heard and obeyed' when he says something. On the other hand....I find it very difficult to believe that he could sustain success with the Bills for 7 years if it's true that "He has zero relationship with the offensive players. Zero. None. Absolutely zero" and "He wants the relationship that he can’t have with the players. Because he’s not physically, mentally, or socially able to". Because coaching professional sports now a days is very much about building and managing relationships with the players. So is McDermott the Dale Carnegie Award Winning Self-Aware COTY, maybe not, but there's a lot of room between that and "not physically mentally or socially able to" have relationships with the players and just pooping on his assistants. I could see big development in Brian Daboll from his first year with the team to his fourth, from being a stiff-faced guy who flirted with throwing his players under the bus in pressers, to being an affable guy who expressed concern for both players and reporters. Usually (not always) people develop in their job because it's asked or even demanded of them to change.

Got a linky? Not that it's a surprise.

They have Mahomes and Kelce. That ain't nothing. Rashee Rice seems to be emerging nicely as a #2 WR, similar stats to Davis, and he's on injury report but practicing in full. But Pacheco has BY FAR been their leading rusher, so unless Edwards-Helaire and McKinnon step up, it may make the Chiefs significantly more one dimensional.

Thanks So Hall's salary vs. that paid to other assistants with similar experience would be an objective stat. Across the league, young assistants just transitioning to position coaching are not, I think, well paid. Objectively, the team and the players could have been penalized for gathering as a group at Hall's house during Covid. How much of the harshing on the truck thing was due to the possibility of punative action from the league? Zero relationship with the offensive players? Allen says he meets with McDermott weekly. Diggs has been seen on the sideline with McDermott talking to him, and apparently altering his mood - later Diggs said that McDermott is great because he always knows the right thing to say. Funny that could occur if McDermott has "zero" relationship with the offensive players. It is a fact that coaches need to walk a line between being a coach, and "being a friend". Where that line is, is a matter of perception, and whether Hall crossed it in a way that affected WR performance especially in some big games, can't tell from this. It IS a fact that in Dunne's "Isaiah McKenzie Show", I heard a lot of blame-shifting to Allen for "throwing the ball too hard" and to conditions where the ball was "wet and slippery". The Bills WRs seemed to have trouble making cuts and hanging on to the ball, in conditions where the opponents WR and DB were not having trouble. I'm pretty sure that Dunne was told what he reported here, but there seems to be a lot of personal opinion from the unnamed assistant mixed in.

Maybe it had to do with "Gary", Jerry's alter-ego, who Tre White described as "terrifying" when he was a rookie - and the "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalties he drew https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HughJe99/penalties Not to mention his confrontation with a referee and his continuation in the tunnel after the game. Hughes may have been justified but I'm pretty sure McDermott would view the way he expressed himself as "conduct detrimental to the team"

I apologize, but my best efforts can't find this tweet or the "chad hall truck story". could you summarize please?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Goodwin was in my opinion a lousy route runner and poor at tracking the ball while he was with Buffalo. It was only when he got over making "career decisions" to save himself for his Olympic dreams and decided to earn his contract with San Francisco that his abilities as a WR leveled up. I mean, Come On Man, in his 4 years in Buffalo he had a catch % of 44%. Even in SFO his first year it was 53%. You do you, but painting that as "perfect for Allen's cannon" strikes me as highly revisionist. Foster Part Deux. You're entitled to your opinion but no, while I wouldn't say they were terrible, I don't think that's a particularly talented crew, especially for a raw rookie QB. I grant that the OL was halfway decent. You're kinda stretching Chandler's productivity. He did have one >600 yd year. Question: when has Tyler Dunne ever asked Sean McDermott a question, tough or otherwise?

Pacheco was a 1-man wrecking crew vs. Green Bay and vs. several other teams this season. "Angry Runs" all game. If he's unable to go this week, that would be a bit of a help, theoretically.