GregPersons

Oh okay

I don't think they do either; what you're suggesting I'm suggesting is not what I'm suggesting, lol. I don't think everybody fits into these categories. People are people, on the individual level. And yet, also, group behavior is real. Both can be true and observable. The thing you're misunderstanding — not maliciously, but just, this is part of where we are not taught about this stuff — racism has nothing to do really with what you feel in your heart. It's not really the issue, actually. The issue is the systemic societal ways in which people are dehumanized. It's important to remember that this is talking about government policy and government behavior. Not asking to change everyone into cuddly happy neighbors; sure it would be nice. But the main thing is -- legally -- from the way the law operates -- things are not equal You can even still hate black people and be against racism. You can be like "i think they all smell funny" and also loudly be like "BREONNA TAYLORS MURDERERS MUST BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE" or whatever. Do you see what I am saying? Part of it is an age thing, which is also, a generational understanding. The message in the 60s-00s on race was "if you dont hate people, if you tolerate others, you're not racist." The realization recently is that's not enough. It's deeper, it's more subtle, it's more baked in to the very core, and can't be ignored away.

It all kind of comes down to ownership/labor here, doesn't it? Kaepernick is an example of a lot of divisions & contradictions in America's morality. I'd also like to see a player-run league because, we're different on this, I just don't give money or capital or owners that much credit for actually doing much. It's looting that we just kind of accept as normal, even though, if you look at it with fresh eyes, it's actually really bizarre. I would say especially with basketball, where what's necessary to make a game happen is a lot easier than football, what purpose is there to have an NBA owner? What value are they providing? As an investor? Yes, be an investor. An owner? What is owned? The clothing? The logo? There's other buildings. Clothes and logos are cheap. Why are ball players — and then, really, everybody — so willing to sell themselves short and take the first offer? It's a losing mentality overall. There's a lot of power in athletes hands. But fans & owners really like the version where athletes are employees or, even... well, the word you might use for an unpaid employee but whom you generously provide room and board and meals and a nice education and gosh what an opportunity to work hard out in the fields. What's the word? Ah yes. College football players. The exploitation has always been the point. Why?

Okay fair enough. I don't know why he hasn't, exactly, met with government officials. I know he met with activists and veterans. I'm also not sure he hasn't met with government officials. Moreso, I'm not sure what it would actually do. It seems like Kaep meeting with Nancy Pelosi would be basically an empty gesture. And nothing would happen but a photo op. If I had to guess, and I am just speculating, Kaepernick may have decided to not tie this to any specific politician. Because... if Kaep meets with XZY politician... then it's kind of like the Castro shirt again. Well, then it becomes about Pelosi or whoever he meets with. It becomes, again, the conversation is picking apart Kaepernick and the idea that black people have a legitimate sentiment and request. So, when I keep mentioning COINTELPRO (and there's that twitter thread you should check out) — what you'll see is ... there's a tendency in all of we should be aware of. And it's not really our fault, it's straight up conditioning. But let me make this observation, and try to absorb it as truth, and then look for it around you... Look for this like you'd see the FedEx arrow, once you see it, you can't unsee it.... Okay here it is Notice how, every time race or racism is brought up — especially with White People, but also deeply ingrained culturally — every time, our instinct is to "Mission Accomplished!" it and pat ourselves on the back, put it in a box and wrap it in a bow, with a gift card for the next generation that says "We tried!" But it's always empty. It's JUST the box. It'd in your gut. And mine. And everyone's. The slight physical tension, the crave for release.... it's like an addiction.... we're addicted to the fantasy that racism is not real, that we in the present day hold no accountability for our society and how it came to be.

The cynic might consider who is really taking money from who, in the larger sense, if they're looking to be even more cynical. The cynic might note that our willingness to default to the company's side, and assumes the company's behavior is worth defending, indicates a prisoner mentality and shows how utterly corrupted we've become by corporations on an individual level. Even when we have no stake in the matter. We're still trained well to rat each other out. I can't get on board with any idea that any professional athlete is ever taking money that is undeserved, when there are owners taking far more, for doing far less. They are using their body and their skill and their name. The owners do nothing. I'd love to live to see a day where players control the leagues and collectively decide to cut owners out entirely.

Let's remember, too, it wasn't actually Kaep who put himself above others. That was thrust upon him by the media reaction and by virtue of he was the biggest name doing it. He was the SB QB, a face talent, not a skill position.

Exactly. If you keep peeling back that onion, it's impossible to not feel betrayed, imo. Doesn't matter who you are. If you have any sense of American pride, and basic morality, I don't see how you can't arrive at the conclusion of like... this is a con game, holy crap, this is really just a pyramid scheme on a larger scale. Lol. Like... how did we fall for this. This is some Pick Up Artist nonsense. "Rugged indivdualism." We have all been told... its funny that older generations apply this only to Millennials, like, there is literally a "Greatest Generation" lmao.... but we've all just accepted, as manifest destinty, that we are all SPECIAL. And because we are so SPECIAL, it is inconceivable that we wouldn't also already know everything. Particularly from Reagan forward, the new world order and status quo is "history is over. we won. we're all the winners! yay!" Anything we want to hear, they're happy to deliver it, as long as it keeps your eye off the ball. Ohhhhh I could go on. It's not accidental. It's not a woopsie doo. It's, I think, truths we can hardly comprehend, its evil on a scale we aren't ready for. The truth is that there is no right way to protest other than the effective way. What's the nice way, anyway? If you think about it, it just means "the way that I don't have to see." But you seeing it is the point. The folks that aren't paying attention, and don't want to, how do you get them? That's the riddle. In the 60s, sit-ins at diners were just cause to beat the ***** out of people and spray them with hoses and all sorts of horror. It was unimaginable that black and white people could eat at the same restaurant. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, most of the music you hear at the grocery store... recorded during a time where it was a debate whether or not Thurman Thomas could sit at the table next to you. It's not ancient history, it's really recent. Well, I'm not sure. In my analogy, the boss/you was Kaepernick, offering a criticism, and the employee was White America who can't take any criticism or self-reflection whatsoever and have to turn it into something else where they can feel right.

Good post. Your heart is in the right place. I'm going to help guide it a little closer to the bullseye. Kaepernick is one of many symbols of race in American history. In effect, he always was, the moment he became a starting QB in the NFL — but when he kneeled, he took individual control of his individual body and individual voice and actions, cognizant of his default status as a symbol of race in America. He decided — like the famous black gloved fist pump at the Olympics in the 70s — to take the spotlight and make it meaningful. The anthem already has meaning, yes. Kaepernick's kneel adds additional meaning; it creates a dialogue. The kneel says, America is a country of people. It's built on agreements, on a series of agreements that set precedents for future agreements. But it's become unclear if we have the same basic agreements. It's like a marriage in which after so much fighting about the bills and schedules, it's now unclear whether one party actually respects the other as another as a true equal, or if one partner is supposed to remain as a servant to the other. It's helpful to understand racist and racism in the systemic and societal and larger sense of it (you're using it correctly it seems like, again just preaching to any readers). What is racist is what upholds racism. What is anti-racist is what challenges the things that uphold racism. So, Kaepernick becoming a Super Bowl QB and kneeling = both anti-racist actions Kaepernick being blacklisted for speaking out = racist; upholds different standards for which causes matter and which ones don't The NFL apologizing to Kaepernick and acknowledging wrongdoing = anti-racist; yes its johnny come lately but it remains an action that challenges the status quo of racism Kaepernick getting an offer from an NFL team = anti-racist in the same way Whether Kaepernick chooses to take the offer or not, well, that could be debatable on whether that is or isn not a racist action. Anybody, any action, can be racist. If Kaepernick started, suddenly going on about how, like, George Floyd actually deserved to die becasue he was a drug addict... that would be racist. Even though he also has done many anti-racist actions. In other words... It's a process! Trust the process. Stand against racism, big and small. Doesn't take much. Just a little bit of the (very fun once it's a muscle memory) F YOU when you see it. Might not change all hearts and minds, but imo, I am now going forward in life with a personal Zero Tolerance policy toward racism. It's just, the buck stops here. I am taking my part of responsibility and hoping that other people get mad enough to do the same. And then, eventually — not today or tomorrow — but, eventually... eventually, maybe. You can't let the odds get you down. Nobody knows that more than Bills fans, other than black people. You gotta manufacture your own hope.

That's true, especially with how oblivious coaches can be at evaluating talent. The reality is that coaches are often just working with someone they can vibe with, someone they can communicate with. Anthony Lynn with the Chargers ... he and Kaep would gel, I feel confident. Put it in front of as many people as you can. It's... ah I dont even know where to begin. I'll just say that. It's funny - and again it's by design - how Americans are all so certain we are much too clever to ever be persuaded by government propaganda. Us? Come on...! Sure, okay, I'll give you that even. It goes both ways, though. Because really, more than virtue signaling, you see major cultural defensiveness. It's like... imagine you are a boss doing a performance review for an employee. You're trying to tell the employee the ways they could be better; all they're doing is "WELL WHAT ABOUT...." You're like. Do I have to fire you? I just need you to listen, and stop doing the bad dumb evil things, because replacing you would be very difficult. So please just stop killing the other employees. And they're like "WELL THEY'RE JUST PART TIMERS!"

Yeah man I hear you. I'm not, like... blaming you. Or even arguing. Idk. I'm just talking. I'm just trying to help illuminate things, because, again, we're just not trained to talk about it. We don't know how, culturally. I'm not saying I am the super expert, I am just sharing what I know, and trying to help people understand things that I remember not always being so clear to me. It is an ongoing process, not a one time thing. I'm just preaching, dude, because it needs to be preached, that's it. Like Kaep, I'm not a perfect messenger, I don't think we should expect that... especially on stuff that is just "offensive" by means of a person expressing themselves in a way that doesn't harm anyone else. I guess, if... ok if Josh Allen wore a Robert E Lee shirt, but also was kneeling for BLM.... well, that would be very interesting contradiction that I'd kind of love to see like a white Lil Nas X playing football, lol.... but .... for me it would be the same thing, I guess. "He liked Lee as a general, and you know, Lee didn't support slavery either." Okay sure. A bit questionable but, again, who cares. The main point still stands.

Why?

Okay fair enough. I apologize for the many question marks. So let me rephrase. It's a separate issue. If Kaepernick were running for mayor, okay, let's talk about it. But he's not. It doesn't matter. It's a side issue. It's a distraction from the subject. I agree he shouldn't have worn it, for the simple fact, I don't want to be talking about it like it holds any equal weight to the topic of police violence, which is the right issue to protest, the right issue to be mad about, and the right issue to talk about. We can talk about the relative good and evil results from Fidel Castro another time. I don't know why he wore it. I could get more into the fact that America is no saint, either, and Cuba's crimes are probably overall less ghastly than America's, if we want to get really real about it. But I don't see a point in that. He shouldn't need to be --- we shouldn't need him to be perfect for us to listen, and to be able to recognize the truth when it is spoken. It says a lot that the truth in America is now highly, highly conditional. It also says a lot about how much we don't want to hear certain messages. America's big legacy, 100s of years from now, I'm convinced, is going to be mind control and delusion. From Hollywood movies to most of the CIA's activities during the 20th century at least, to I'd argue the founding documents knowingly misrepresenting the ideals and meanings of "people" and "freedom" and so forth.... I don't know if there has ever been a more powerful propaganda machine in the history of the world. For a fun / horrifying read of history, look into COINTLEPRO. Not just a cursory one or two line explainer. Get into the weeds on at least a wikipedia page or something, because, bro... we're just all so massively underestimating the efforts that have been taken so that even our interactions, and interactions like ours, will inevitably fall off the track and away from the central issue. It sounds too wild to be true. It's funny/sad too that, like, Q anon people who love conspiracy theories, don't believe the ones that definitively happened. Tulsa Race Massacre, most of us found out about this because of Watchmen on HBO — it's not taught in schools. It was suppressed. There's a way harder truth too in that the words we use to talk about "race" is like... ah, I can't even begin to bother to get into it again. But just, why aren't there more words besides race, racism, racist? Well, there are. There were in fact, equivalent conjugations, and theories and schools of thought, of derivative words from "the N word." That's how we thought about this, as Americans, until .... our grandfathers generation? Maybe ? Bottom line... we haven't wanted to ever talk about race, and that's not an accident. and ignoring it doesn't help. and trying to yell shut up at the problem doesn't solve it either.

Who cares????? Why is this the bigger offense???? Why is this what triggers you? The violence, eh probably fine. THE SHIRT THOUGH, OH MY GOD It's just ridiculous.

People's reactions to the pig socks, I think, are the worse offense. My sister-in-law is the same way as you, it's her biggest offense to the whole thing. Her brother's a cop; her parents are out and out racists. My brother, less so, but far more willing to tolerate it, obviously. My reaction to pig socks, personally is as follows: Pig socks? Who gives a crap? Are you kidding me? People are getting murdered in the streets, for no reason, and there is no repercussions for this. It is not considered a crime. And you're quibbling over the man's footwear? White culture is so full of lies and deception, it's nightmarish, and any white people who recognize it and can speak against it, ought to, because it's disgraceful. Instead of judging another man's socks, try imaginging yourself in them, imagining yourself in the position where you felt like that expressed your feeling. Pretend you have to live someone else's life. Empathy! To your question. Have you not looked into this at all? He has been active. Also. Why is this his responsibility alone? Why wouldn't it be okay if just raising the issue was his role and that was it? Why does he have to identify it, notify you, sacrifice his career, and then also, btw, solve a 400+ year problem that's been ignored forever, and do it before kickoff. Why are White people culturally so resistant to responsibility? They/we preach it ALL THE TIME... and yet on race... something White Culture invented and implemented... no responsibility, whatsoever. Always deferral. Always. It is so ghoulish and cowardly, I can't tell you how much it sickens me, tbh. Because it's optional. It's not necessary. White people, as a cultural force, could stop obstructing and work to be helpful to their fellow countrymen. It's really shameful, IMO, that the White race has no history of helping anyone but themselves. Imagine living in a time where maybe that would be different. It's very hard to do - da do- da - do.... You are saying Dak donating money to the police is helpful, but just dismissing all of the money and causes and everything Kaepernick is doing... just the willingness to be so dismissive, that alone...... you're not getting it, man. You're choosing to not get it. So, I'm not gonna make you get it. I just want you to know, it's really easy to watch you and see you choose to not get it. You're lying to me, or you're lying to yourself, but you are making the choice. You know what you are doing.

First, let's be clear — there is nowhere you will find Kaepernick describing himself as a victim. That's an imaginary argument. Also, I didn't say Kaepernick was a victim — I don't know why that wouldn't describe his role in what happened with being blacklisted by the NFL, but, the first mention of "victim" is coming from you. As pejorative. He knew what he was doing, yes. He was not acting without thought. It was the opposite. He was acting very thoughtfully and consciously. He was aware of his actions. "He brought it on himself", I disagree with... that is the same as saying the wife who is beaten by a husband "brought it on herself" when she burnt the chicken. You see that, yeah? Instinctually the reaction is to get defensive but just, chill, think about it. What do I get out of fighting with you. Speaking out against injustice is not an invitation to be fired. "Company time" is a garbage argument and isn't something to be taken at face value. Anybody who wants to go to bat for corporations over labor, be my guest, but defend the position with more than "if I took a knee during the national anthem at MY job, I would be fired too" — does your job force you to observe the national anthem? We agree the NFL handled it poorly, and they would've been screwed either way, in the sense that there's no middle ground on it. But the reality obviously is they're not actually "screwed" in any real tangible way at all. It will hurt them potentially in the future, but that's still less likely than it not mattering in any real way. Now... if you want to really understand what Kaepernick was doing, in terms of "he knew what he was doing", like if that is a statement that has any curiosity to it... not just what he's advocating for, or how he's advocating for it.... but everything else behind it.... you should read the book "Revolt of the Black Athlete" by Harry Edwards the sociologist/philosopher! It's all about this stuff but written in the 70s. Just like James Baldwin's letters, the real truth is that these aren't new issues/arguments nor are the forms of dissent new. It's all in a continuum of cause & effect. If you like movies, last year Soderbergh released High Flying Bird on netflix, which is also inspired by that book, great movie, super interesting -- raises the question on players and labor -- why shouldnt all sports be like boxing? What does the NBA, or NFL, PA need owners for, really? Why should they be sharing what the players are earning on their meritocracy? They could all go PPV, crazy expensive prices. There's a lot of ways we keep ourselves down by not imagining better things or simpler solutions and then just insisting on making it so. We have a (trained) instinct to under-value ourselves and humans in general. It's really... perverse, and sad, and interesting if nothing else. Well this got long. Idk about you but hard to stop seeing all of the connections once you start digging through the rat's nest of wires behind the entertainment system...