FireChans

Okay so let’s get some good WR’s and add a great RB and rebuild the defense to be the best in football. who says no Okay. might as well not get more talented. we are just too far to bother. Lets sign 6 Mack Hollins instead.

You won’t help me because you know they are all examples of Allen doing it nearly single-handedly, like being the first QB with a passing, rushing and receiving TD in a game lmao. Too easy man, I shouldn’t do this for free.

What records did he set? It certainly wasn’t most yards or TDs in his career, let alone record breaking.

What records did Allen set? and yes, the Eagles unequivocally traded a #1 pick for AJ Brown, paid him twice, went to a SB twice and won once.

Yeah the Eagles did that. They just had a parade. This makes Allen a nice guy. to me, this point is obvious. Allen, playing with the worst group of receivers since 2018, put up one of his most efficient seasons ever. Sure he had a great RB and a great OL. But Allen won MVP, in part imo, because his supporting cast was weak.

Is it inaccurate? Mahomes won MVP, won the SB and was great after trading away Tyreek, and was perfect in the Super Bowl. The next season he had his worst year as a pro. Quickly followed by his second worst year as a pro. True or false? I will admit I may have made it misleading.

Sure but I would argue he’d take less. Are you arguing Allen didn’t deserve MVP? I would say by definition, the MVP award is the most proof it was “all Allen” possible. My friend, if we wanna play the “exactly what you said” game, didn’t you say that you would be done with WR discussions if anyone could point to a high paid WR1 that won a Super Bowl? I don’t have time to check the tape, but I feel like that was a familiar refrain last offseason. As I said, I was talking about Mahomes. His 2022 season with Kelce and Juju was legendary. Won a Super Bowl, was clear cut MVP. Did almost everything. Since then, he has fallen off a cliff play and production wise. I wasn’t trying to say we need a Chase so my mistake. I was trying to say that the argument that 2024 proved that WR’s don’t matter because Chase missed the playoffs and the Bills offense was great despite their WR’s is foolish. Eek. Well we’ll see. I think that’s the exact WR contract that I’d steer away from. But I think the Bills will pay him so we will find out one way or another!

I know you say that, but you’ve weirdly pivoted to “you don’t need an elite #1 blue chip WR to win a Super Bowl,” when that’s really not an argument anyone has made to the contrary. There’s lot of things you don’t need to win a Super Bowl. You don’t need an elite QB. Trent Dilfer won one. You don’t need an elite defense. 2019 Chiefs won one. You don’t need an elite #1 WR. See your previous post. So I don’t really get it. Again, we can point to lots of teams with clear lesser QB’s that have had much more success both in production and win totals after sizable investments in WR. So why are we now talking about needing them to win a Super Bowl?

I was actually referring to Mahomes lmao. I will write a better response to the rest of your stuff later.

See last year we had this same argument, and at that time, folks said "no one has won with big spending on WR's." Now, of course, the team that wins does, and you'd think that would change the take a bit lol.

Look at the board broski.

AJ Brown has 4031 yards and 25 TDs in 3 years with Philly. Where they have been to the playoffs 3 times, the SB twice and won a ring once. Yeah, I’d say he was a key contributor and that is super production. lol.

Yeah I guess that was door #3 that I neglected to mention. Urban Meyer really had those Florida boys all together. @GunnerBill get this rube

Meh, I think too much is being stated on elite vs blue chip vs #1. Ultimately, you showed a lot of SB winning WR's that imo would get paid massive dollars in today's FA. So maybe they aren't overrated. You are discarding these guys for having less than 1000 yards, but we are sitting here debating if Shakir is worth $20M for 800+ yards lol.

Tbh, I don't think Richie was the kind of guy to have a frank discussion and work towards positive change. We didn't hear much about him in Buffalo, but I have a sneaking suspicion he was also probably the same vulgar, slightly unhinged fella. Maybe Wood was a positive influence on him or maybe he got better, but with the stories of his other outbursts post-Bills, I don't think he changed. What I think spoke the most volumes about the saga was how much Pouncey went to bat for Richie. Now, that doesn't mean Richie did nothing wrong, but there was a clear tacit approval of Richie's behavior by his contemporaries, which to me either pointed to the behavior being not that egregious (to them) or the entire locker room hated Martin and didn't care.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I ever watched one. I almost wrote Guy Pearce but caught myself at the last second.

That's not the point of the OP though. His point is the LEAGUE is overvaluing WR's. Which imo is clearly not true. The Dolphins traded a huge amount of assets for Tyreek and gave him big money. They made the playoffs in back to back years for the first time since 2001. So was he overvalued or properly valued? The Niners with Brock Purdy went from back to back NFCCG and a SB appearance to 6-11 in part because Aiyuk got hurt and Deebo got old/washed. Were his WR's overvalued or properly valued? The Eagles with Jalen Hurts went from 9-8 and a WC team to 14-3 (SB appearance), 11-6 (WC team) 14-3 (SB win) after trading for AJ Brown and paying him TWICE. Was he overvalued or properly valued? So no. Just because Josh Allen and Mahomes can make things work with relatively weak WR's doesn't mean that WR's are overrated league-round. It just means we are lucky to have 1 of the 2 guys in football who can get by without them. And like I said earlier, maybe because we have those guys, we don't need to chase a Higgins and throw him $30M. But imo we also can't take for granted Josh's greatness and give him bargain basement tools to make hay with. This take is a first cousin of "Why don't the Dolphins just make Tua as good as Josh Allen, are they stupid?"

What I am trying to say is that outside of two dynasties, SB winners are so rare that drawing ANY sweeping conclusion because of what has or hasn't happened is kind of silly. Like "the Pats and Chiefs won most of their Superbowls without a #1 WR." That's true. Does that mean a #1 WR would not help you win a Superbowl? No. AJ Brown just helped Philly win one and got to two with him. Do we think if the Bills traded a 7th round pick for Justin Jefferson tomorrow, their SB odds for 2025 would get better, get worse or stay the same? I think we all agree get better. Yeah, "not needing" vs "don't want" is the debate here. The Chiefs and Pats also competed for multiple Superbowls with HoF coaches, maybe the best two to ever do it, and HoF QBs, maybe the best two to ever do it, and HoF TE's, maybe the best two to ever do it. So I agree with your argument. The history is very clear, if you have a arguably top 2 HC, TE, and QB of all time, you don't need a traditional #1 WR to win a Superbowl. I'm not sure we have those other 3 ingredients, maybe QB. What we do know however is that Tom Brady posted one of the best years in his career in 2020, with maybe the best WR group of his career, including a traditional #1 in Mike Evans. After posting one of the worst years of his career and an early, disappointing playoff exit just the year before. Of course, he won a SB that year as well. So Brady did, 100%, benefit from having a stable of great WRs and it culminated in his 7th ring. So I think there's a clear distinction between the Bills and the league. For teams like the Bills, who have an all-world QB, sure, having a superstar WR is nice but is much less needed for your all-world QB to be all-world. For the rest of the league who don't have that level of guy at QB, a superstar at WR may be the difference between a Dak Prescott playing good enough for 8-9 vs 13-4. It's the difference between Tua winning 8-9 games or winning 11 and making the playoffs. It's why the Bengals debate is so interesting. If Joe Burrow is really that dude on Mahomes' and Allen's level, IMO, he shouldn't need 2 great WR's. It would be nice, but team-building won't allow it. We all saw what Brock Purdy looked like this season with Aiyuk out and a washed Deebo. They went from back to back conference championships to missing the playoffs and picking like 10th? So an adjusted take that I would put forward to you would be "WR's are overvalued by the rest of the league in comparison to a team like the Bills." To which, I would completely agree. We don't have a Sam Darnold under center who likely needs JJ, Addison, Hockenson etc etc to play at a high level. All that being said, I think there is a floor to that take. We simply cannot show up to another camp with the same caliber of WR that we did in 2024. A WR group that we needed to ship out a valuable pick to try to salvage in October.

I think this analysis is also faulty. No one has ever won a Super Bowl with a QB from Wyoming. We should trade Josh for JJ McCarthy because Michigan QB’s have a better track record. You were closer to the mark with “every team is different.” I don’t think the 2007 Pats lost because they had Randy Moss. Do you? I will say, my take that had emerged earlier this year is that the dead zone of WR6-20ish are not worth paying. You have to be a Chase, Jefferson etc to be worth paying in the market for the Bills. I’d rather pay those dudes $30M than a Shakir, who is a nice piece but that’s it, $20M. Where has AJ Brown gotten his team in the playoffs?

Um he just helped make Sam Darnold look competent for 17 games and had the second best record in the NFC and made the playoffs? You know, the Sam Darnold who was 21-35 as a starter before last year? The Sam Darnold with a career TD/INT ratio of 63-56 prior to last year. He went 14-3, threw more passing TDs than the MVP, and had a TD/INT ratio of 35 to 12. you may not have heard.

I mean, if you think it’s the correct strategy to have Josh put his body on the line every season, resulting in multiple injuries, including breaking his hand week 1 that limited him for half the season, that’s your prerogative. I think it’s a complete and utter mistake. Josh won MVP in large part because he brought this group where he did. Because HE was the offensive engine. There was once a QB who had his best season, an MVP season, with a diminished stable of weapons. 2 years later, he was a shell of himself. “We don’t really need a Jamar Chase, our offense was great without him” is really really shocking to hear. Just expect Josh to carry the JAG brigade and never turn it over and throw himself over linebackers forever. That’s totally fair. I wouldn’t touch Shakir at $20M AAV though, would you?

Yeah it’s not the same level. You take a good to great punter or running back, I’ll take Justin Jefferson. We’ll see what QB looks better.

You’ve never heard gang-related East Londoners make rude and disrespectful comments about each others’ mums? Have Guy Ritchie movies been lying to me?

If I was running the show, would be a high value position. CB, OT, EDGE, WR. we just drafted Ray Davis and he was fine.

This is a symptom, not a cause.