Mikie2times

Kyle Orton dressed like the village people in a Josh Allen jersey. Where is Chief Wiggum

I mean, Beane is great at building above average competition at nearly every position. I think when people are upset at his drafting, it’s not that he can’t find contributors. It’s that we can’t find difference makers.

Don't undersell it

I knew it was around starting games….. Not alot of statistically valid methods exist and I’m not counting this as one of them. Plenty of reasons exist why a draft pick could start. The team can be poorly assembled, lacking talent in key areas. They could be more committed to starting draft picks. It’s pretty obvious ranking Beane 2nd doesn’t exactly pass the sniff test. At the same time ranking him near last as some would have you believe doesn’t jive either.

Taylor and Anarumo gives them elite coaching on both sides and yes, I think systematically they're built to be much more physical than us. I would stop at that point. As an organization, they can't and never will be able to keep up. Brown just doesn't have the money. Not horribly off what we saw with Ralph. As money gets tighter, perks go away, and top down control increases.

It's all about the gambling money. That is the big to do on this subject. When this occurs the event gets ruled a no contest. Doesn't matter what the score is. All money returns to the better and the house doesn't keep the juice. The NFL cares too much about gambling. It's more about that than anything else being discussed on here.

Heck, I barely know the Bills well enough to guess. Mahomes appears more like a perfectionist type than I once thought. If I really had to guess I would say Bieniemy used to be that person for them. But who knows.

I think we have tons of leaders but we don’t seem to have that alpha dog punch you in the mouth style leader or perfectionist who will rip you. Nowadays those guys are likely very rare anyway so it’s hard to say how much of a deficit that is or isn’t.

I would say valid point, my bad. But I was never "dying on the hill" over that play. I didn't recall the down and distance as you pointed out. I can post a practical season worth of examples of what I'm describing. So if anything you seem to want to reduce this more to a singular example a lot more than I do. But as I said, this is growing pointless. No example will change your mind. Does it even matter if it did? You think your opinion is more accurate/educated. I think mine is. It's an old fashion pissing match and I don't come here for that. If you want to circle back mid season sounds good.

I think my point is pretty clear. If Allen can in fact read defenses, he chooses to not take anything underneath. Everything, regardless of down, is waiting for something longer to open up. In the mean time, he gets in 3rd in long as a result, gets sacked as a result, throws picks as a result. Yes, he makes Josh like, nobody else can make plays as a result, but I would just rather convert a damn first down and create some level of rhythm. As one poster pointed out in a thread awhile back, it's like watching a 3 point shooting team in basketball. It's nice when they go down. But they don't always go down. Josh is feast or famine with everything. Last year, the reason was the line sucked, the WR's can't get open, Josh has a hurt arm, and the OC doesn't call anything short. Literally a hysterical cocktail of bs. At the very least, is it all possible in the litany of excuses that Josh in fact contributed? Not one person took the path of Occam's razor and said, hey, maybe the QB is passing up his quick reads. In fact, maybe he doesn't even look for them. Then maybe, just maybe, if he passes on his quick reads he will get sacked more. Maybe fumble more. Is that happening? Great Scott! It is in fact happening. Despite watching him pass these options up over and over and over, I'm a J-Ass for simply pointing it out. I'm done posting about this. He's a great player. It is not worth laboring over this conversation another day. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, please bump this thread. It's not like I get my rocks off watching my favorite team and favorite player not do well. I hope to hell I'm wrong on all of it, Josh has an MVP season, and dunks on my face.

He has the in route for 7 yards and is looking right at it. He comes off it, holds the ball until the last millisecond, then rips an incredible pass down the sidelines to Davis. If this play happens 10 times, he will get strip sacked on at least one. Sacked on several others. Throw incompletion on several others. Where if he just takes the in route he will complete it with no risk 9 out of 10 times. Perhaps 10 out of 10. This would be a great call out except the corner doesn't have anybody behind him. So if jumps the out as you think they designed, Allen has six. Prior to Diggs even making his break the Steelers DB already has his hips turned as he would be beat if he doesn't.

I think most if it has been a decline post 2021. I actually think his ability to read defenses has regressed with the departure of Daboll. Then really regressed last year as teams figured out a general way to limit his Joshness in the 2nd half of the season. When Josh is decisive, think play action, he is in rhythm. He knows exactly what he wants to do with the ball. We saw this a lot in the end of 21. Some of that links to confidence and some to system. I think both have taken a hit for Josh. His confidence is hit because he has no exit ability when he doesn't know what to do with the ball. Then further, he is with a new coordinator that isn't nurturing him as much as far as helping with his progressions and allowing him to be decisive. We will see. I do not think he is Cam by any stretch.

He can't read defenses as well as you and others think. That is what I believe. I feel he is slow to get the ball out as a result. Which contributes to a poor offensive line play and turnovers. It also contributes to some only Allen like plays we have seen. I feel Daboll understood this more about Josh than Dorsey. Daboll did more to simplify reads. To create more deliberate throws. By in large, no, I would never think a QB could deliver Allens statistical profile without being very good at reading defenses. But I have never seen a QB thrive when plays break down like Allen has. That was until last year. It was like teams were not going to let him get to the sideline. Ever. Then later in the year, they stopped rushing him. I think teams are making him be just a QB and I think Josh struggles when he doesn't have the escape route he used for the last several years in the form of broken plays. My opinion isn't changing until I see a reason for it to change. It will change when I see him take hot routes off the blitz. When I see him concentrate more rhythm and timing. When I don't see constant double clutching. A general reduction in time to throw would also be a pretty damn good indicator. Obviously I hope all these things happen. Allen is one of the best things to happen to all of us in our Bills fandom. Again, I can still be critical of him and feel that way too.

I have been here since 2000, I have an excellent reputation, I don't think I'm trolling. I also think Josh is responsible for most the reasons we are even having this conversation (the Bills being good). Is it ok to think Josh is responsible for most of our success, while also expressing the view I did or do you have to hate Josh and think he is responsible for nothing if you don't think he's the best at reading defenses? Just let me know what box I need to climb into to fit your view of how I should be a fan.

Brady having the ball out in rhythm all the time. Having the fastest release time. That didn't contribute to how good the line looked to you? I never came close to saying Josh Allen isn't an elite player. I said he isn't good at reading defenses. When you're one of the elite talents of all time you can still be elite without doing that all that well. You want me to dispute your memory of the play vs my memory of the play? If you have a link post it? I recall Allen clutching the ball too long, progressing in his reads, seeing Davis open on the left and making a throw nobody can make. He would be sacked doing exactly what he did in many situations. But all you see is the outcome in front of you. I posted a play where he clearly did what I described. It also worked. Does that mean it was the right way to process the play? Do you want to resolve this going one play at a time? Help me get off my soapbox please.

That's fine dude. It's funny. I started a thread about midway through last season. I brought up that Burrow was probably just as good as Josh and that the Bengals were a real threat. Only to be treated as I have been in this thread. I brought it up because I like balance in thought and nobody gave Burrow the time of day which seemed homerish to say the least. The further I diverge in thought from the masses, the more inclined I am to fight them. I care a lot more about truth than some rule about how I should act as a Bills fan. I love Josh, this team, and everything to do with Buffalo. But I'm not going to be a homer or fail to discuss what I'm seeing because it's not popular. If by your standard that makes me a bad contributor so be it. I guess only good contributors see things as you see them and they fall in line in feeling as everybody else feels. We have plenty of very smart people here. I'm not the only one who see's what I'm discussing. But fighting the 20 to 1 ratio of posts you get when you just try and say Josh isn't perfect is worthless to most.

I'm sorry, I was confused trying to understand how you can lose something that you're now saying never existed. So are you saying that "adjustments"? Can you elaborate on what those adjustments were? From what I could see, they involved not letting Josh break contain and improvise, not rushing him recklessly, and blitzing much less (which is pretty clear in the data). Basically, they're making him do what I'm saying he isn't the best at. Which is is one, two, three, throw. Lets also not pretend that RB even factored into this. Cook was parked underneath for a check down a disturbing amount of times last year. The only time Josh has engaged the check down from the RB position was the end of 2021 and look at what it did for him. I can pick any tape from last year. Very few of his throws are made at the top of his drop. It only happens in rhythm on play action or if his first or second read is locked in while he drops back. If he doesn't know 100% where he is going at the top of his drop he will start patting it and then it has to be a clear stair it down throw. If the rush disrupts his timing he will not look at the check down or trust shorter routes until after they have developed. Past seasons he would run or roll out in any of the above scenarios. That's how he essentially converted all these "I'm not sure" moments into big wins. He can't do that anymore and its taking the rhythm out of the offense by forcing 3rd and long which did not go well last year. 3rd and long last year: Allen was 27 of 64, 522 Yards Burrow was 54 of 83, 654 yards Mahomes was 40 of 63, 837 yards As far as completion % at least align it to when they played. It does matter. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm Josh is actually below the league average for his time. Which doesn't matter to me, you brought it up in poor context. Josh is one of the most talented QB's to ever play the game. He is still plenty capable at the position while having the issues I describe. If we want to have Super Bowl aspirations he either needs to eliminate what I'm describing which he largely did at the end of 2021 or we need more talent. This team is not good enough at blocking or tackling to win a Super Bowl without a QB who is elite at reading defenses... Brady was the best ever, Manning, and Brees were both pretty close. All three have less talent than Josh.

This is the problem with most Bills fans and Josh. I'm not blaming Allen. His inability to get plays off on time contributes to areas we already suck in, like pass protection. The problem is multi faceted. It's just everybody on here gives Allen a break on his contributions. Look at minute 1:41 below. Classic example of what I'm describing. J Josh hits the top of his drop. He has the out route. He is looking at the out route. He pauses. Dawkins is already beat horribly, but again, if he just takes the damn out it doesn't matter. Instead he super man's his way to a completion. Bills fans celebrate his greatness. Problem is he had the out the whole time. A great play would be not having to make a great play. If he has to keep making great plays in that spot he will make great mistakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrJiPBXQf10&t=103s As for your theory. Who knows. I have watched every play for over 20 years. Plenty of elite QB's lose talent and keep on being elite. So I'm not inclined to put the emphasis on JUST the WR's or OLINE, as so many here do. Josh is 50% of the issue. Most people can't see it because he creates 90% of the solutions. It is just a dumb preseason game, but what happened in the play above is just an extension of last years Josh.

@CincyBillsFan I mean, given we went a whole year in 2022 hearing why we won't attempt short throws, it's eye opening that you just expect this will change in 2023. Will it be Dorsey that we will blame? Josh's elbow? What will be the reason we can't hit a quick slant this year? @GoBills808 Late in 2021, I presume largely based on a offensive coordinator that designed it to be that way, I saw Josh decimating teams with his reads. The ball was out and out quick. Didn't happen last year. It also just so happens last year was the first year teams stopped allowing Josh the sidelines to do whatever he wanted. Then as the season progressed, they stopped rushing him. Now he has an OC who I presume isn't taking such an emphasis on routes and motion that shows coverages. Josh isn't getting the ball out at the top of his drop. He's double clutching. The off spring of Ray Charles could see it...it's nearly every pass. But again, how dare I as part of Bills fandom, blame Josh for even contributing to a minor issue. He is incapable of fault. All we can admit out loud is that sometimes he makes the "silly" mistake and even when that happens, it's really just because he's passionate. It's also not a "bad" mistake. It's "silly". Like a child, because Josh has a youthful exuberance.

Yup.....watched the whole game How many throws did he make on time at the top of his drop? The 35 yard throw to Gabe, he was on his 2nd or third clutch. Saw it and ripped it. I don't need proof if he sees a guy open, that he can deliver it. I need proof that he doesn't see a guy, he see's a coverage, he can get the ball out on time and in rhythm.

I agree with all of this. Without Josh we are nowhere. So I think from that perspective you can't really find fault in anything he does. As you said, he is either the best we have ever had or in a debate for that title. Having said this, the bar is elevated to a Super Bowl. So as I watch Josh, I watch Josh in the context of a Super Bowl winning QB. In doing so you have the obvious Favre like, what the hell just happened moments. But those don't concern me as much as top of drop, pat, pat, run. That's a QB not seeing as clear as you would like. Which then makes me wonder, did he ever see the field as clear as it appeared? His arm is so good, he can see a guy open and still rip it in. Almost nobody can do that. He made such a massive amount of plays the last few years in scrambling. Which he doesn't get anymore. Teams are not sending uncontrolled rushes at him. Which allowed the red sea to part in front of him giving him the scramble whenever he couldn't make a read. They also aren't letting him get outside contain which again, is a path he took when he couldn't make a read. It gave him the whole field in front of him, clear visibility. It is becoming pretty obvious teams are going to make Josh win from the pocket as a normal QB. That is the game plan. It was happening just the same last year.

Any criticism of Josh, even if it's just to say he contributes to an issue, can't be right to those on this forum. It can never be even partly on Josh. Josh is incapable of doing anything wrong. It has to be the WR's not being able to get open. The line not being able to block. The coach not being able to draw up plays. It can't just be Josh hitting the top of his drop, double, triple clutching. Having no idea where to go with the ball. Then taking off. Something we see literally non stop with him mixed in with the rest of the crap play out of our various units.

It doesn't look like Josh is decisive in knowing where he wants to go with the ball. Almost like he has to see it first. The line didn't exactly help but Josh plays a role. I would be less concerned if it wasn't similar to how he looked a lot of last year. Kincaid, as Einstein has said a few times, is great with leverage. It will be interesting to see what the team looks like week 1. I don't think it's as bad as people are making it out, but I also don't think it's completely nothing to see either. We were very bad in nearly every area and created more questions marks in key areas like the OL and defense.

It's pretty obvious we have the better brother. The Jets couldn't even beat Arizona. Allen for MVP. 2nd place more likely Kincaid than Rodgers. The only real team in New York wins. Jets fans are ugly. (My Bills fan impression of this thread) Side note, I do think the Jets are hyper over rated. Some of these posts just made me chuckle.

Good thing this isn't Basketball.