Typical TBD Guy

Good one, smart guy You know what I meant. English is the common language used in basically all international science conferences and for publishing in all the most influential science journals.

...and of science.

A "que" ball is the pool ball of which Miami residents don't know its purpose.

Completely agree. NASA has long been fertile ground for Dilbert cartoon ideas. I'm very impressed that NASA pulled off what they did Tuesday when you consider that the guys bossing around the engineers are mostly second-tier MBA grads, ex-lawyers, beneficiaries from past administrations' nepotism, and any other non-technical egocentrist fat cat they could find.

Fins are far worse. No contest. Just look at the JJ quote you mention. It's very representative of the whole Dolphins organization mindset ever since Huizenga took over in 1990. The Dolphins have zero concern over player character, and they'll not hesitate to draft or sign any fugitive on talent alone. The Bills, on the other hand, have taken character into consideration for as far back as I can remember. This is because Ralph Wilson is a respectable human with a healthy social conscience. We can all look at Henry, Stevens, and especially OJ and call them big POS. But don't forget one crucial thing: none were drafted/signed with any known prior criminal baggage. Stevens tested positive and was soon cut. Henry had sex with a girl in a gas station, and his replacement was subsequently drafted. OJ killed 2 people almost 2 decades after leaving the Bills. But if OJ were to magically regain his old running skills back, I'd bet good $$$ that the Fins would instantly sign him to a huge contract. And I'd also bet that OJ's agent would be Rosenhaus.

Great post, eball. The only part I disagree with is the one I highlighted here. The question of swapping teams is a somewhat hollow one to me because, IMO, I don't think anyone here would want to swap the Bills roster with any other if given the opportunity. I wouldn't. Not even the Pats roster. The Bills roster is OUR roster. We've grown used to cheering for them. Cheering for Pats players in Bills uniforms is hard to envision. In our heads, it'd still be like cheering for the Pats team. Now ask me if I'd like to trade for any other teams' ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and I could provide a sizable list. And back again to the top 5 talk. My ceaseless complaint has been that this is nothing more than wishful thinking and cannot be backed up with any evidence. A lot of us fans are calling our GM great based on all the great things we're speculating we will/can achieve in the next 2 years. But that's not how things work. IMO, you can't say someone is great and use future predictions as justification. If I called JP Losman a top 5 NFL QB right now, most of you would (rightfully) laugh at me. He COULD be great, and he certainly has the potential, but players don't win accolades on potential. So then why are the standards different for TD than for our players? Here's my final stance on this one: when the Bills make their first AFC Championship game is when I will start calling TD top 5 NFL GM material. The crux of this entire debate lies in defining everyone's standards and expectations for TD's upcoming 5th season. I'm interested to hear everone else's. I already defined mine: barring unusual injury problems or an extremely strong finish to counter an extremely poor start, the Bills must make the playoffs to justify TD's 6th year. Now since I'm feeling particularly cheery this afternoon, I will even say that 9-7 - 10-6 without playoffs is acceptable under the assumption that continuity heading into year 6 is a higher priority than would be the newly raised questions regarding TD's competence as GM. Since I seem to be universally hated around this board, I will also make this promise: no more negative posts about TD ever again (outside this thread). I do, however, maintain my right to occasionally post a link back to this thread to make my point! -KH

Interesting post. I agree with some points, disagree with others. Let me explain what I disagree with: 1. Yes, 1987 was indeeed Polian's second season, but that only furthers my point that I wouldn't have been calling for his head by that time. I've never even come close to calling for TD's head after his second season (2002). In fact, I've never even called for TD's head NOW! The earliest I've ever suggested is by the end of this upcoming 2005 season. 2. You forgot to mention that in Polian's 3rd and 4th seasons, the Bills not only made the playoffs but won their divisions. In 88, they made the AFC Championship. Small difference from what TD accomplished in his 3rd and 4th seasons, despite whomever Polian inherited. 3. Calling the 2004 season a "backtrack" would be valid if you consider that it concluded with the firing of the starting QB and the promotion of a totally unproven rookie QB. Now many will contend that this is not a backtrack at all because Drew blew so bad, and I actually AGREE! You were right, and I was wrong. I should not have called 2004 a backtrack. It was a poor choice of words in the heat of the moment. However, if we all agree that 2004 wasn't a backtrack, then why are a lot of people saying it's OK if we don't make the playoffs in 2005? If JP is an improvement over Drew, then why are most fans here OK with another season without playoffs? We were, after all, close in 2004. So wouldn't expecting anything less than playoffs be "backtracking" from '04 to '05? 4. You've explained how TD can still be considered to be on equal pace with Polian's historical progress. But my central argument has been that it should be playoffs or bust by this coming January. Would you not agree that a fifth year without playoffs would derail TD further from the similar path that Polian was blazing by his 5th season (1990)? To everyone else besides jad1 who has replied to me, I can concede that: 1. I have gone overboard with the negativity in many of my posts this offseason about TD and the OL. 2. TD is an "above average/good" GM who has just been flat out unlucky in a lot of situations with players, coaches, and so forth. 3. Making the playoffs shouldn't be the all-or-nothing ultimatum that determines whether TD stays here beyond the '05 season (i.e., unusual numbers of injuries DO happen and a dramatic second half-season turnaround CAN justify 1 more year). But for those who believe TD can be considered among the top 3-5 current GM's in the NFL, I just hang my head and sigh. Because at this point in time, I can't see how he can possibly be viewed as any better than around the border between top 3rd and middle 3rd in a ranking of current NFL GM's. The evidence is just too damning: 2001: 3-13, no big deal. Rebuilding year. 2002: 8-8, good job. Future looks bright and on schedule. 2003: 6-10, trouble. Now we need a new rookie coaching staff. 2004: 9-7, trouble. Now we have to go with a new rookie QB. And during this timespan, all but 6 lowly teams (Jags, Texans, Bengals, Skins, Lions, Cards) have made the playoffs. Luck plays a role, but can a top 3-5 GM be THIS unlucky?

Truly amazing. I call TD a mediocre GM, support this by highlighting his objective 4-year record as Bills GM, and I get ripped on left and right as a radical. OK then. Fair enough. I've seem some legit counter arguments here. Yet there are guys calling TD a top 3-5 NFL GM talent, have no real support for this other than some gut instinct (see: homerism), and they barely receive a scratch. I can't even imagine what non-Bills fan guests who view this board are thinking when they see a GM with a 26-38 regular season record being labeled top 5 GM material. TD had a great run as a Steeler GM, but those years - at this point in time - seem like long-forgotten history. But the powers that be have spoken. I really need to stop posting here now.

jad1: Wrong. I would not have wanted Polian fired in '87 because the team had made dramatic progress by his third year from the absolute mess he inherited in ‘85. Plus, he was doing so within the confines of a pre-free agency, pre-salary cap NFL era that did not encourage rapid turn-arounds like we regularly see now. And I've NEVER given TD a hard time for his first two seasons here, but the team has stalled and even backtracked for the last two, which has raised my skepticism of him higher than that of other fans around TBD. Sorry. 34-78-83: Ah yes, the classic "you can't be a real fan because you're a pessimist" argument. No need to revive that debate. As far as me being unrealistically critical, I've rarely been anything but optimistic regarding the progress made by our D, ST, coaching, and offense outside the QB and OL. I also feel TD is an OK GM, but I draw the line at calling him top 5 NFL material. This may surprise you, but gloomy Kelso's Helmet thinks the 2005 Bills CAN make the playoffs. Only catch, though, is that I also think they SHOULD as well, whereas many here (too many, IMO) think it's quite all right if a team with the #2 D, #1 ST, talented skill players on O, and competent coaching doesn't. eball: TD's league-wide reputation is almost certainly higher than "average," which is what I've called TD. So few, if any, NFL experts would agree with my assessment. However, an NFL reputation can often be totally inflated (example: Ruben Brown) or based more from past successes than current ones (example: Mike Ditka). For the Steelers, TD was a "well above average" GM. During his time in Buffalo, he's still maintained his reputation as an excellent talent drafter, an excellent financial manager, and a great team marketer. However, the team direction thus far is lacking. There's no killer edge among the collection of excellent players we have. That final game in Pittsburgh is the epitome of what I'm getting at with this. For all the outstanding statistical rankings the team has gained and all the player talent we've amassed, in the end - like for virtually all other competitive venues in life - it all comes down to the final result (the W's). IMO, TD has created a team of paper tigers after 4 years, and while 1 more year to prove otherwise is fair, 2 more years (for a total of 6) seems too much by today’s NFL standards. Realist: A respectable opinion, though I admit I’m more of a bottom-line W/L guy. I think this team has the talent to do better than your prediction of 9-7, but this is dependent on the D staying strong against the run and JP minimizing the turnovers. Yoho: Don’t forget Dick Gallagher. My ranking would be Polian, then Gallagher, then Butler, then TD (who can move ahead as soon as we make the playoffs), and then the dreaded rest whose names should be burned from the record books. God, do I hate the pre-preseason debate...

You strike me as the type of fan who got excited over the GW press conferences during the 2003 season. You probably believed that the only real problem with the 2003 team was that they just didn't "execute better." Am I right? Holy stojan, what has happened to the Buffalo Bills fan base?

The dude asked us to name 3 GM's we'd rather have, so I did. If you think TD deserves to be mentioned among the top 5 GM's in the NFL, then pardon my French, but you are a !@#$ing delusional fan whose homerism is overriding common sense. TD is an AVERAGE general manager, and if his assembled team cannot make the playoffs this year, he deserves to be fired. As far as naming potential replacements, I don't know enough NFL management names to even take a guess. But in this current NFL salary cap era, how hard is it to replace mediocrity on par with TD? I remember reading something like only 6 other teams besides the Bills have not made the playoffs since the 2000 season. Some of those 6 teams included the Bengals, the Cardinals, the Texans, and the Lions. The Jags and Redskins might have been the other 2. What a !@#$ing pathetic state of Bills football to be compared with those other organizations. But apparently this doesn't bother enough fans to the point of demanding playoffs or else for 2005.

Point well taken, Lori, but it does little to detract from my argument.

The "side" I'm on is the one that: 1. Thinks TD is an average GM and nothing more. 2. Thinks TD can be rightfully blamed for assembling a team that can't make the playoffs in a 4-year timespan. 3. Thinks TD's current record doesn't justify a contract extension. 4. Thinks TD should not return as Bills GM if he can't get his 2005 squad to make the playoffs, i.e. he doesn't get yet another 1 year pass just because JP is a rookie. The point I was trying to make is that Alaska Darin suggests that he's clearly in favor of well-documented evidence over speculation, yet is prone to use speculation himself to support his own arguments. I used a previous quote in this thread as an example of this.

Let me give the Retard Rollercoaster a whirl... Well-documented: TD's failure to assemble a team that can make the playoffs (a marker that well over two-thirds of NFL teams have passed in the same 4-year period). Speculation: that Brady is the sole reason for the Pats' SB run and Drew was the sole reason for the Bills' recent failures, since there are - well - 52 other players on a team. BTW, Pioli drafted Brady and BB mentored Brady, while TD didn't draft Brady and traded for Drew...so what does that say about the evaluation skills of each guy? An inference based on your exact words in a previous post: "I'll believe Belichick and Pioli are geniuses when they win a SB with Drew Bledsoe. I'll believe Tom Donahoe is an idiot when we don't reach the playoffs with Tom Brady at the helm. Swap the two QBs last year. Think about it."

No offense, FFS (you're still one of the best Bills posters around), but that was a totally ridiculous argument. I cited 3 GM's who I think are definitely better than TD and who I would rather have managing the Bills and who I think would have gotten us to at least the playoffs in the past 4 years. Those 3 GM's, with their respective teams, have consistently made at least the first round of the playoffs if not beyond. Luck can be a factor in individual plays, individual games, individual circumstances like injuries, even individual seasons, but over the course of multiple seasons those 3 GM's (and yes, there are several more in the NFL) have shown consistency of excellence; excellence as defined by enough W's to make the playoffs and more per season. It's the CONSISTENCY of excellence that helps us best define who is good and who is not. CONSISTENCY is the best way to reduce the "luck factor" and let the factors of ability and hard work stand out. And in that regard, TD has proven as a Bills GM so far to be consistently mediocre (he has been occasionally great and occasionaly awful, but overall mediocre). Of course luck plays a role, but then does that mean no one can ever make a value judgement on GM's, players, coaches, etc.? Are you suggesting that the whole evaluation process is faulty? That it's impossible to determine who is good and who isn't in the NFL (or anything in life, for that matter)? Should we just throw out the whole sum worth of a Super Bowl trophy because all it does is define who was really lucky and who was just unlucky? I guess no one should ever deserve to be fired, either, because they were probably just really unlucky

I think this extension is because Ralph Wilson feels guilty about one of the 2 main reasons TD's rebuilding project is taking so long - Drew Bledsoe (the other being GW, who is probably 100% TD's fault). Mr. Wilson, after all, put a lot of pressure on TD to somehow get Drew in here for 2002 and also to keep trying with him beyond the '02 and '03 seasons.

The GM's of the Patriots, Eagles, and Colts (Polian!) would suffice.

That's cool. My only hope is that the apologies for TD end if - by December - the OL and offense/team in general have shown no noticeable improvement from last year's 9-7 finish. In this day and age in the NFL, 5 consecutive years without playoffs are grounds for firing. OK, I'll shut up now in this thread

Are you normally this dense or are you just trying to instigate? Read my previous post. Last time I checked, the VAST majority of American Christians (well over 99%) have publicly denounced Christian terrorists like Rudolph. There was ZERO sympathy from any news network across the US over Rudolph's fate. Even the Nazi-based propaganda machine you call FOX News had no sympathy for such Christian terrorists. Yet check out al-Jazeera sometime, and you won't get the same reaction towards Palestinian/Iraqi suicide bombers. Not even close.

Fricking BULLSEYE. Any publicity is good, especially for a way over-the-hill, way overrated actress with a narcissism-soaked book to sell.

Or rather, the problem isn't that the vast majority of Islam is violent, but that the vast majority of Islam does not publicly denounce violence, i.e. terrorism. Until the vast majority of Islam does so, unfortunatley the negative Western stereotypes and general racism towards the Islamic people will continue.

I guess most TBD'ers here seem to agree with you and don't share my OL doom and gloom forecasts. Nevertheless, I think we fans are banking too much on Drew as THE problem and McNally as THE solution.

One could make the argument that last year's OL was just mediocre in the run game, and that Willis would have been even more productive if he wasn't hit in the backfield so often. Furthermore, last year's OL pass coverage started out awful and got better, but this was against cellar dweller teams in the second half of the season. When it counted against legit teams, the line folded badly (yes, Drew was a big part of this problem too).

No need for the " ". If you define popularity by how much $$$ each player can command on the market, then my logic is sound. Verba is still a more attractive player than either Gandy or Bennie, but the reason why Verba isn't signed is because he's asking for WAY too much. In other words, if Verba was asking for the same contract as Bennie or Gandy, then there would probably be a large number of NFL team suitors. Same logic for James vs. Henry and Alexander vs. Henry. If James and Alexander had the exact same salary situation/demand as Henry, they'd have at least half a dozen teams vying for them.

Well then TD clearly lost his touch upon arriving in Buffalo, because we're heading into year 5 of his perpetual rebuilding project that is the OL, and both projected starters on the left side were even less popular on the free agent market than currently is Verba.