Typical TBD Guy

Nance and Denney, as it stands now, can't even break into third string (and may not even make the PS). Expecting either to emerge as a solid #2 in two weeks is a bit unrealistic. Aiken is an outstanding #4 WR (especially with his ST skills), but I need to see more from him against first string D's before elevating him further up the WR food chain. He was too quiet against Cincy. I think Davis has the most potential for being a legit #2 if Price ends up crying himself off the roster, but he's currently having trouble beating out Josh Freaking Reed.

You're cutting Parrish? Or did you just forget him? And personally, I wouldn't be at all happy with Aiken at #2. One solid preseason game against Carolina reserves does not make him a #2. Let's not kid ourselves here; Price not working out as the #2 is NOT good for this offense. Of course, we may all very well be jumping to conclusions...

Here's mine, revised slightly from yesterday's: ROSTER (53): K Rian Lindell P Brian Moorman LS Mike Schneck QB1 JP Losman QB2 Craig Nall QB3 Kelly Holcomb RB1 Willis McGahee RB2 Lionel Gates RB3 Shaud Williams FB1 Alan Ricard FB2 Joe Burns WR1 Lee Evans WR2 Peerless Price WR3 Roscoe Parrish WR4 Josh Reed WR5 Sam Aiken TE1 Robert Royal TE2 Ryan Neufeld TE3 Kevin Everett LT1 Mike Gandy LT2 Terrance Pennington RT1 Jason Peters RT2 Brad Butler LG1 Tutan Reyes LG2 Raymond Preston RG1 Chris Villarial RG2 Aaron Merz C1 Melvin Fowler C2 Justin Geisinger DE1 Aaron Schobel DE2 Chris Kelsay DE3 Ryan Denney DE4 Eric Powell DT1 Larry Tripplett DT2 John McCargo DT3 Kyle Williams DT4 Tim Anderson OLB1 Takeo Spikes OLB2 Angelo Crowell OLB3 Mario Haggan OLB4 Josh Stamer OLB5 Keith Ellison MLB1 London Fletcher-Baker MLB2 Courtney Watson CB1 Nate Clements CB2 Terrence McGee CB3 Eric King CB4 Jabari Greer CB5 Ashton Youboty SS1 Donte Whitner SS2 Matt Bowen FS1 Troy Vincent FS2 Ko Simpson PRACTICE SQUAD (8): QB Craig Ochs RB Fred Jackson WR Martin Nance TE Brad Cieslak T Dylan McFarland DE Ryan Neill OLB John DiGiorgio CB Eric Bassey CUTS (28): K Nick Setta QB Kliff Kingsbury QB Tory Woodbury RB Anthony Thomas FB Daimon Shelton FB Jon Goldsberry WR Jonathan Smith WR Andre’ Davis WR Chris Denney WR George Wilson T Matt Morgan G Greg Jerman G Aaron Gibson G Jason Thomas DE Joshua Cooper DE Jason Hall DT Jason Jefferson DT LaWaylon Brown DT Tai Tupai DT Lauvale Sape OLB Wendell Hunter MLB Liam Ezekiel CB Kiwaukee Thomas CB James Bethea S Rob Lee S Rashad Baker S Jim Leonhard S Coy Wire

Thanks for the responses, guys. I will update this roster again after tonight's game. Here's some of my comments about what you've all said: 1. Going with 2 QB's is definitely atypical, but it's been done many times before in this league. The Bills did it in 2002, I believe, with only Drew and AVP. Nevertheless, my roster prediction is supposed to be what I think will happen, not what I think SHOULD happen...so I will probably add Kelly back onto my roster . 2. I kept Wire for his ST play only, though I understand a lot of you hate him for that as well. I'll continue to believe a "captain" of the special teams must have some ability in this facet of the game, because we all know Wire didn't make the 2004 and 2005 roster by his safety skills. 3. I kept Burns for the same reason I kept Wire, and Ricard adds more dimensions to the game than does Shelton (who is more or less just a blocking fullback, and not that great of one....). 4. Keeping only 3 DE's, like with the 2 QB's, has been done many times before in this league. Last year, we only kept 3. This year, the talent beyond Kelsay and Denney is just as bad...though I could see a 4th DE picked up from some other team. I'll keep an eye out for Powell tonight. I didn't pay too much attention to him in the preseaon game, though I do notice that he's now the 4th DE on the "official" depth chart. 5. Ellison is a great fit for a Tampa-2 OLB...I'm predicting that it will be a matter of days before the accolades start rolling in . Conversely, I still don't see what all the lovefest over Ezekiel is about...he hasn't shown me anything so far. 6. Vincent won't be cut. The hate for him on this message board is slowly approaching Wire level, but he's still a solid starter who has the speed and intelligence to play FS at a high level. Last year, he didn't look as good because NO ONE in our secondary looked all that good (but he still led the team in INT's). As a former DB in high school, I know how difficult it is to play back there when your front 4 is giving the QB and WR's all day. Levy didn't cut Vincent like he did Milloy because - unlike Milloy - Vincent fits our new Tampa D. 7. Neufeld's a great blocker and - you can see a pattern here with my roster choices - good on ST's. Cieslak has been quiet since preseason began...not sure why. 8. Baker's not a bad player, and he'll make someone else's team. But I'm not so sure he fits our new D system like Vincent and Simpson do. 9. I might have mixed Merz and Pennington up when I formed my opinions of them from the Carolina game. I'll pay better attention to these OL guys tonight.

I suspect the only truly controversial moves I made were having 2 QB and 3 DE on the roster. In my defense, I'd prefer having a couple extra special teamers instead of a crappy 3rd-string QB (Moorman > Holcomb) or a crappy backup DE (one of our DT's or LB's > Josh Cooper, Eric Powell, etc...). ROSTER: K Rian Lindell P Brian Moorman LS Mike Schneck QB JP Losman QB Craig Nall RB Willis McGahee RB Lionel Gates RB Anthony Thomas FB Alan Ricard FB Joe Burns WR Lee Evans WR Peerless Price WR Josh Reed WR Andre’ Davis WR Sam Aiken WR Roscoe Parrish TE Robert Royal TE Ryan Neufeld TE Kevin Everett LT Mike Gandy LT Terrance Pennington RT Jason Peters RT Brad Butler LG Tutan Reyes LG Raymond Preston RG Chris Villarial RG Aaron Gibson C Melvin Fowler C Justin Geisinger DE Aaron Schobel DE Ryan Denney DE Chris Kelsay DT Larry Tripplett DT Kyle Williams DT John McCargo DT Tim Anderson OLB Takeo Spikes OLB Angelo Crowell OLB Mario Haggan OLB Keith Ellison OLB Josh Stamer MLB London Fletcher-Baker MLB Courtney Watson CB Nate Clements CB Terrence McGee CB Ashton Youboty CB Eric King CB Jabari Greer SS Donte Whitner SS Matt Bowen SS Coy Wire FS Troy Vincent FS Ko Simpson PRACTICE SQUAD: QB Craig Ochs RB Fred Jackson WR Martin Nance TE Brad Cieslak C Aaron Merz DE Ryan Neill MLB John DiGiorgio CB Eric Bassey CUTS: K Nick Setta QB Kliff Kingsbury QB Tory Woodbury QB Kelly Holcomb RB Shaud Williams FB Daimon Shelton FB Jon Goldsberry WR Jonathan Smith WR Chris Denney WR George Wilson T Matt Morgan T Dylan McFarland G Greg Jerman G Jason Thomas DE Joshua Cooper DE Jason Hall DE Eric Powell DT Jason Jefferson DT LaWaylon Brown DT Lauvale Sape DT Tai Tupai OLB Wendell Hunter MLB Liam Ezekiel CB Kiwaukee Thomas CB James Bethea S Rob Lee S Rashad Baker S Jim Leonhard Discuss.

But remember that the Bills were picking near the end of each round in that 2000 draft... The worst Bills draft of the past 15 years was probably the 2002 draft, which played a big role in setting this team back to what it is now (particularly when including the Duh Bledslow trade). Also, in the pre-Kelly era, there were some true draft stinkers that made 2000's draft class look pretty good. You need to brush up on your Bills history, son .

You've defended your points very well in this thread, Mr. Arm, but the bottom line is that we disagree strongly over the fundamental role of government. This would be another topic altogether, and one which I doubt will get anyone to change their minds. If you'd like to see our government offer financial incentives to encourage more intelligent offspring, all the power to you. Start contacting your local politicians and see what comes of it. However, two major questions (among many more, I'm sure) need to be addressed first before embarking on such a task: 1. How do you define intelligence? Because there are lots of different types of intellectual abilities, many of which the standard IQ test does not determine. 2. How will you explain your government-sponsored eugenics plan to blacks, Hispanics, and other groups who tend to not perform well on the usual suspects of standardized intelligence tests (IQ, SAT, GRE, etc...)?

It takes a lot more than raw intelligence to make great intellectual discoveries like - as you say - finding the cure for cancer. It takes a LOT of hard work (and luck). Those smart women you're complaining about who aren't having enough children...how are they supposed to find the time to make all these great discoveries you're demanding if they are too busy pumping out babies every other year (and then raising these babies...an intense, 18+ year commitment)? Furthermore, you speak of emotions getting "in the way of exploring cause and effect relationships." Yeah, people tend to get "emotional" when you're advocating that the government tell them how and with whom they should procreate . I'm confident that humans can solve their civilization's problems and maintain their free will at the same time. And if we can't? So !@#$ing what? "Give me liberty or give me death." Think about it. If you want a utopian society, go build some robots out in a remote field and start a new robotic civilization, free from all those pesky imperfections in humans like "emotions." And finally, how do you suspect our government goes about determining intelligence? Let's assume the IQ test is infallible. So what should be the cutoff on the IQ exam? And what happens if you personally - Mr. Arm - don't make that cutoff? How'd that make you "feel?" Oh right, emotions...I forgot...you're only interested in objective truth.

Two horrific things stood out to me in your lengthy post: 1. Your ridiculous opinion that government should get involved with how we procreate. 2. Your utter contempt for fellow humans who don't meet your standards of ability. (Regarding the latter, please note the curious common ground you share here with Alaska Darin). I'm not sure if you are just playing devil's advocate as some sort of intellectual exercise for yourself, but in case you actually believe the sh-- you typed... my suggestion is to sign off immediately, go outside, have a few beers, and go converse with a real-life human of the opposite sex. If this woman isn't attractive or doesn't meet your physical fitness standards, try not to hold it against her. More cushin' for the pushin'...or so the saying goes. In other words: just enjoy life, man. If all of us common retards eventually lead to the destruction of your precious representative democracy in these United States, my question to you is, "so what?" Nothing lasts forever. Not any one government. Not any one country. Not even you. Maybe not even your arrogance. PS: If you end up getting the fat chick pregnant, and the baby turns out to be not as intelligent as you, oh wise one...try not to hold it against the poor child.

Not so sure about that. We will have plenty of cap money next year to sign Clements AND address some of our needs on the lines. We'll be something like $20 million + under the cap limit next year (consult Clumpy for the actual number). And back to topic, here's a top-10 list of longest tenured Bills: 1. Peerless Price --- 1999 (if you want to ignore his 3-year absence) 2. Moorman, Schobel, Clements --- 2001 5. Fletcher-Baker, Reed, Denney, Wire, Burns --- 2002 10. McGahee, Lindell, Aiken, Neufeld, Kelsay, Sape, Crowell, Spikes, Haggan, Stamer, McGee --- 2003 Note how no QB or OL of ours has been on this team earlier than 2 seasons ago...

My thoughts exactly. Haggan is actually a great match for a Tampa 2 Sammy, and Ezekiel will be bagging my groceries at Wegmans this September. Here's what the LB roster should look like: WOLB1: Crowell WOLB2: Ellison MLB1: Fletcher-Baker MLB2: Watson SOLB1: Spikes SOLB2: Haggan 7th Reserve LB: Stamer One of our strongest units....

Perhaps I will stop calling him Broderick Flowers and start calling him Broderick Moore.

Keep in mind that it was a different Bills administration who was willing to cut Morris. As for Wire, I'm not saying you're wrong about him, stevewin. I'm just saying that you COULD be wrong. This board has been proclaiming Wire to be good as gone for the past 3 offseasons, and each time Wire still made the team. He's not a very good safety, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he's making it because of ST play?

I have Posey listed as backup DE. That's probably why you missed him. Throughout Haggan's career, he's played at all 3 LB positions. While I think he could still get away with this in the new Tampa-style D, physically his best fit is probably at strong side. I moved Spikes to the strong side because Crowell would be more useful at weak, and I'm confident Spikes can excel on either side. I suspect the coaches will do the same by mid-August, but like with everything I've posted so far...it's only my opinion and I could be wrong. While I don't agree that Posey is "a cut above any of our backup LB's," I'll concede that Posey wasn't sent packing with Milloy for a reason - because the coaches still think he can serve a purpose under the new D. I'm wondering if that purpose is at the 4th DE spot? If Posey packs on a few more lbs, I think it just might work.

There are 2 universal truths in this forum that so far have held steady: 1. Every sports writer is an idiot. 2. Coy Wire sucks. Let me try this a different way. The following is my most current roster prediction, which includes all of Wire, Burns, Stamer, Haggan, and Aiken. If you think any of these players get cut, tell me who is more deserving of the roster spot and why: ROSTER: K Rian Lindell P Brian Moorman LS Mike Schneck QB JP Losman QB Craig Nall QB Kelly Holcomb RB Willis McGahee RB Anthony Thomas RB Lionel Gates FB Daimon Shelton FB Joe Burns WR Lee Evans WR Peerless Price WR Andre' Davis WR Josh Reed WR Sam Aiken WR Roscoe Parrish TE Robert Royal TE Kevin Everett TE Ryan Neufeld T Mike Gandy T Jason Peters T Terrance Pennington T Brad Butler G Tutan Reyes G Chris Villarial G Raymond Preston C Melvin Fowler C Justin Geisinger DE Aaron Schobel DE Chris Kelsay DE Jeff Posey DE Ryan Denney DT Larry Tripplett DT John McCargo DT Tim Anderson DT Kyle Williams WOLB Angelo Crowell WOLB Keith Ellison SOLB Takeo Spikes SOLB Mario Haggan MLB London Fletcher-Baker MLB Courtney Watson MLB Josh Stamer CB Nate Clements CB Terrence McGee CB Ashton Youboty CB Eric King SS Donte Whitner SS Matt Bowen SS Coy Wire FS Troy Vincent FS Ko Simpson PRACTICE SQUAD: QB Craig Ochs RB Fred Jackson WR Martin Nance TE Brad Cieslak G Aaron Merz DE Jason Hall MLB John DiGiorgio CB Eric Bassey CUTS: K Nick Setta P Josh Brazen QB Kliff Kingsbury QB Tory Woodbury RB Shaud Williams FB Derrick Ming FB Jon Goldsberry WR Jonathan Smith WR Chris Denney WR George Wilson T Aaron Gibson T Greg Jerman T Matt Morgan G Dylan McFarland G Jason Thomas DE Joshua Cooper DE Eric Powell DE Mark Word DE Ryan Neill DT Lauvale Sape DT Jason Jefferson DT LaWaylon Brown DT Tai Tupai OLB Wendell Hunter MLB Liam Ezekiel CB Jabari Greer CB Kiwaukee Thomas CB James Bethea FS Rob Lee FS Jim Leonhard FS Rashad Baker

What would be so terrible about keeping Wire AND Bowen? Again, if Wire is indeed the captain of the special teams, I just don't see the Bills cutting him. Same goes for Aiken, Haggan, Stamer, Burns, etc...

HERE. Says Wire is the special teams captain (I didn't know that). Mr. Byrne also makes it sound like Wire and Aiken could be in danger of being cut...which I disagree with....special teams are the only good thing about this dismal roster. No way Levy and Jauron break this unit up. I bet we keep 5 safeties, and I don't think Baker, Leonhard, or Lee are worth more than Wire. The WR competition looks more chaotic to me, but I think we keep 6 of 'em and Aiken has the edge over Smith, Wilson, Denney, and Nance. Thoughts???

And so the plot thickens!

A point I made way back in post #119, which is what is starting to really piss me off about this forum. People are so bent on bashing others that they'll overlook any ideas that might initiate actual debate... And for the record, Crap Thrower and his ilk, yes of course I'm willing to open my mind about some alternative choices outside of immediately bombing Iranian nuke facilities (what sick person would actually prefer an all-out war if it can be avoided?). Um, but first I'd like to hear them. It's one thing to constantly identify flaws in potential solutions, quite another to offer one's own. Now getting slightly back on topic, does anyone know more about China's role in Mid East diplomacy? This was an intereting question MattyT raised (post #185), and I don't want to see it get buried.

Says 4.57 here. Also in that link, read the final paragraph in the Analysis section. Says he's a good fit for the cover-2 as a Willy. I'm sure our scouts did their HW and watched enough film to determine that his speed won't be an issue. LB's do so much lateral shifting and backpedaling - which 40-yd dashes don't measure - that it's MUCH better to judge their "football" speed in actual game situations.

Ah goody, the usual arrogant response from the manic depressive, yuppy burnout monkey with the inferiority complex... Yes, I reduced a complex problem and a complex solution to a couple of "binary sets" ( , what a !@#$ing tool you are). Partly in the interest of my weekend time, partly because the issue of Iran CAN be simplified in such terms. You really think Iran's weapons program will somehow cease without the use of external force? In theory, of course that's possible. In practicality? Very doubtful. Or perhaps you think the consequences of bombing Iran now will be worse than the consequences of allowing them to have nukes later? That's plausible - and would be an interesting debate with you if you weren't such a prick - but provided that the US and our allies come to Israel's defense in the event of an Iranian airstrike, I think I'd much rather see us/them take the chance now. Iran, with nukes, will undermine the Middle Eastern fledgling democracies, influence the global oil economy, and be able to siphon WMD's to whatever rogue terrorist organizations they choose.

Actually, I think Ogden was playing injured for that game (though I still agree with you that he's been in decline recently).

@ your precious time. You're on this board 24-7, posting in every thread imaginable. And now TBD's resident pseudo-intellectual has finally found a topic for which he has no time . So...does anyone else know any decent options for halting or disarming Iran's weapons program? Otherwise, I'd definitely be up for some strategic Israeli missile strikes a la Iraq 1981!

Well, there are two outcomes: 1. Iran becomes a nuclear power. 2. Iran doesn't become a nuclear power. The former should be considered absolutely unacceptable. For the latter, I only see one viable solution: 1. Israel/US/our allies bomb Iran's nuke centers now or ASAP. Others might suggest: 2. Diplomacy - has proven to be useless with the Iranian regime...they want nukes, not nuclear power...any diplomatic talks with them are done with their fingers crossed behind their backs. 3. Internal revolt - definitely not gonna happen anytime soon enough, especially since Iranian citizens aren't allowed free press, guns, etc... That's my take. I don't think our options are more complex than this, but I could be wrong. What's your take? And please try to respond without your usual sarcastic, condescending remarks or lame-ass, homophobic Fit jokes.

So we should just let Iran fully develop its nuclear weapons arsenal? What would THAT do to oil prices and overall Middle East stability?