Typical TBD Guy

Whatever his ST title is at the moment, 3 different head coaches and 2 different GM's have kept him on the roster for 5 separate seasons. By now, the only logical conclusion is that - contrary to what everyone here allegedly says - Wire has SOME sort of ability at the pro level. And since he's not starting at SS but is routinely seen with the first units on special teams, I'm guessing that the coaches think he should stick around because he's a pretty good ST'er. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I trust Bobby April's opinion of who's good and who's not over yours. FWIW, I'm not a pro-Wire guy. I think we should only keep 4 safeties, and with a healthy Bowen (who is supposedly also good at special teams), I think Wire needs to go to make room for Gates or a vet OL player or another MLB. But I also don't like to see Bills fans have such rabid hatred for a decent guy who isn't claiming to be anything better than a roster role player and emergency-only safety. Wire doesn't molest girls in public restrooms or skip out on child support payments or flee from the law after murdering his ex-wife; he's a Stanford grad with a blue-collar work ethic that this region - while he still wears the Bills jersey - should embrace. That's all I'm saying

The only TRUE surprise was Lionel Gates. I thought for sure they'd find some way to keep him. The rest of the cuts have legit explanations. Geisinger - never really stood out in any way. Wilson - terrible last game, only beat up on second-half scrubs in the preseason, nothing amazing on special teams. King, Baker, Leonhard - each got torched way too often against camp fodder. Ezekiel - being psychotic doesn't mean you're a good football player. And so on...

OK, but I'm not yet convinced Vincent is done. I'm more worried about Anderson and Kelsay starting than I am Troy.

Typical TBD group-think....am I the only one NOT terribly surprised around here? Granted, I had predicted Wire as a cut for my final roster... but the guy is the captain of our special teams. What is so hard about understanding that special teams are important to Levy and Jauron? Coy Wire isn't a good safety, but neither are Baker or Leonhard. All 3 got burned badly thoughout the preseason. Stop making those 2 scrubs out to be all-stars. They could barely compete against other team's third-stringers. If Whitner, Vincent, Simpson, and Bowen are all injured, then we're !@#$ed and are no less !@#$ed with Baker or Leonhard than with Wire. JMHO.

Well done, Senator! The mistake I was actually looking for was "resign," which should obviously be hyphenated. By the way, I think it's spelled "interrogative." I believe you forgot the 'n.'

You think we might resign some of those players we cut today?

In the future, you should end a sentence with a period (.) instead of a smiley face ( ).

Here's my final roster version. I'm pretty confident in my list, except at the RB's and S's. I'm not sure how the offensive system is going to be using the FB's, nor do I know what's going on with the Bowen injury. My list is also a little light at OL (8 guys), but that's probably more a reflection of our geniune lack of talent there...plus only 7 get activated in any game... ROSTER (53): K Rian Lindell P Brian Moorman LS Mike Schneck QB JP Losman QB Kelly Holcomb QB Craig Nall RB Willis McGahee RB Lionel Gates RB Shaud Williams FB Alan Ricard FB Joe Burns WR Lee Evans WR Peerless Price WR Josh Reed WR Andre’ Davis WR Sam Aiken WR Roscoe Parrish TE Robert Royal TE Kevin Everett TE Ryan Neufeld T Mike Gandy T Jason Peters T Brad Butler G Tutan Reyes G Chris Villarial G Raymond Preston C Melvin Fowler C Justin Geisinger DE Aaron Schobel DE Chris Kelsay DE Ryan Denney DE Eric Powell DT Larry Tripplett DT Kyle Williams DT John McCargo DT Tim Anderson DT Lauvale Sape OLB Takeo Spikes OLB Angelo Crowell OLB Mario Haggan OLB Josh Stamer OLB Keith Ellison MLB London Fletcher-Baker MLB Joe Odom CB Nate Clements CB Terrence McGee CB Jabari Greer CB Eric King CB Ashton Youboty SS Donte Whitner SS Matt Bowen FS Troy Vincent FS Ko Simpson PRACTICE SQUAD (8): RB Fred Jackson WR George Wilson TE Brad Cieslak T Terrance Pennington G Aaron Merz DE Ryan Neill MLB John DiGiorgio FS Jim Leonhard CUTS (17): QB Craig Ochs (NFLE) QB Tory Woodbury (NFLE) RB Anthony Thomas FB Daimon Shelton FB Jon Goldsberry WR Jonathan Smith T Dylan McFarland (waived-injured) G Jason Thomas G Greg Jerman DE Jason Hall DT Jason Jefferson OLB Wendell Hunter MLB Liam Ezekiel CB Kiwaukee Thomas CB Eric Bassey SS Coy Wire FS Rashad Baker

Point taken, but to be fair to the critics you can't always equate "skinny" with "body of a boy." Check out a "before/after" comparison here. Have you ever seen a boy with a body like in that before picture???

The problem is that your formula, as you describe it, is based solely on quantity and not quality. Crappy teams that draft crappy OL players in the early rounds are (obviously) going to drag down the data correlation you're expecting. A more relevant statistical endeavor: For each draft class, make some cutoff definition of "success" - i.e. making the team, starting, or Pro Bowl appearances. Then evaluate the percentage of "successes" for each round, and see what you find (if you have the time ). My guess is that you'll find that better linemen are more likely to be found in the early rounds ... duh ... but the correlation will probably be stronger for linemen than it is for QB's, RB's, safeties, or LB's (again, if you have the time to put together all that data). IMO, such statistical measurements are meaningless. The simple fact is that the OL accounts for almost 50% of your offense. If yours isn't good, then chances are your offense isn't either. And if your offense isn't good, then you know the rest. At some point, a team that expects to have a good offense needs to build a good OL. And if this team is unable to build an OL through free agency or through the later rounds of the draft (i.e., our Bills dating back to the mid 90's ), then maybe it's time to switch strategies and draft them early. And if this team still can't find quality linemen in the early rounds (i.e. our Bills again w/ Mike Williams ), then the GM needs to go (i.e., Satan's son). And if quality linemen still can't be found (i.e. if Butler, Merz, and Pennington suck), maybe it's time to give the scouting department an overhaul? And if quality linemen still can't be found, then perhaps the team's fans should all just shoot themselves and end the misery right there.

All I'm saying is that this "fantasy" was a reality prior to the early 90's. I dare you to dispute that.

Wilson should still be PS eligible. Remember Drew Haddad?

What has Nance done in camp to deserve a PS spot? Also, aside from last night, Aiken has been excellent in preseason...enough to make second string. About Wilson, no one doubts that he can catch the ball. But what about getting open? Can he get open against starting DB's? Or can he just get open against camp fodder? That might be the reason why so far he hasn't broken into the top ranks of the Bills WR competition.

Nance has done less than every other receiver on our roster this preseason (3 games, 0 catches, 5th string). I'm not so sure he even makes the ps. Wilson is still eligible for ps, so maybe he goes there? Also, I wouldn't give up on Davis or Smith just yet. Both have shown a lot on special teams.

Maybe I don't know as much about Gibson's career as you, but I thought it had failed due to injury history and not necessarily due to lack of talent as a tackle. You could be right, though. Not breaking into second-string is suspicious, despite my comments in post #9. At this point, the only reason why I still think Gibson could make the team is because of our total lack of depth on the OL. If you cut Gibson, the most experienced players left become Preston and Jerman . Unless we're going with a complete youth movement and don't really give a sh-- about this season, which is entirely possible....

Let's not let our homerism get in the way of objectivity. Historically, Ralph has been VERY cheap. And more recently, Ralph has been very cheap on coaches - with respect to the rest of the league.

For my generation, at least: Natalie Portman Possibly the best woman in the world for the beauty/brains combo.

QB Kliff Kingsbury WR Chris Denney WR Martin Nance G Jason Thomas DE Jason Hall MLB John DiGiorgio CB James Bethea CB Eric Bassey S Rob Lee

Not saying you're wrong, but remember that it's sometimes hard to judge what coaches think of players in the preseason based on their playing time. Gibson might not be playing much because the coaches have more or less come to a conclusion about what he offers, and are just trying to play the younger unknown guys to see what the younglings have got.

Monetarily? Yes. Personell? Debatable. Going from 3-13 in 5-11 is not indicative of the characterization, "a lot better shape." It took TD half a decade to improve the special teams. That's pretty much it. TD assembled some good LB's, CB's, plus McGahee, Evens, and possibly Losman. In 5 years, you'd expect at least that much. The lines, however (which constitute 40% percent of a roster), are a horror show with only Schobel and possibly Peters as TD players worth a damn. Gandy, Kelsay, and Denney are nothing more than solid but replaceable backups. Villarial is a broken-down, over-paid has-been. Jerman, McFarland, Sape, Jefferson, and Anderson won't be in the league 1-3 years from now. I obviously haven't written off Preston and Geisinger, but it is a tad bit disturbing how neither have created much competition for the starting roles on what's still a very bad interior Bill OL. I don't get it. Are you playing devil's advocate just for the fun of it? Or do you really believe that TD wasn't an absolute disaster for this franchise? All of us Bills fans lost 5 years of our football lives watching TD's group of mentally soft chokers. Coming off the 1990's, it looked like the Bills had finally shaken off the image since the AFL-NFL merger of a franchise laughingstock. Fast forward to 2006, and the Buffalo Bills are again mentioned with the likes of the Cardinals and Lions. The 2006 season is going to be BRUTAL (mid-80's brutal), and it will take Levy at least another year to get this team back to anything resembling playoff-caliber. That's what happens when you take 5 years of not finding quality line talent in favor of the flashy skill players. How are you not !@#$ing livid right now?!

Butler's bad behavior as GM is not an adequate excuse for TD. Regarding Butler, I don't feel all that comfortable defending him because he mostly inherited Polian's team, and - just like TD - didn't have the first clue in knowing how to build an OL. Nevertheless, in defense of your accusations towards Butler: 1. Many teams, especially those who were very successful in the early 90's, mismanaged the cap in the 90's. By the 21st century, pretty much everyone figured out how the cap system worked. 2. The team wasn't in danger of moving because of Butler...blame the WNY politicians for that, as well as Wilson to a certain extent. The regionaliation process, by the way, began in the late 90's before TD came (right around the time that the stadium lease was determined). Can't really argue with your opinion of Butler's drafts. TD's drafts were slightly better...

Well said, JDG. It's not just the ESPN guys who have TD's manhood in their mouths; a small but vocal fraction of this mesage board is still, to this day, slurping up Tom's fertility shake. The 31-49 record since 2001, with 0 playoff appearances, was only matched in incompetence around the NFL by 3 teams: the Cardinals, Lions, and Texans. That's not evidence of an "average" GM. That's downright terrible. In today's parity-friendly NFL, any monkey with an abacus can manage the salary cap, market a pro football team in an area like Western NY (which, BTW, speaks nothing of TD's GM abilities - only his ability as team President, duties of which Ralph has since reclaimed), sign talented free agents, and draft talented players in the first round. It's the "little" stuff - you know, like hiring qualified coaches, drafting in the later rounds, assembling an offensive line, assembling a defensive line, developing/maintaining an overall cohesive plan for winning - that TD couldn't do. This is all, of course, dead horse material. But sometimes it's worth rehashing to make the point that big names and flashy gimmicks mean stojan on the field. Season and postseason results are all that matter. There is no Super Bowl in March or April or July. And so on...

I think Gibson actually has a pretty good chance of making the roster. Given the special teams competition at WR and LB, I wouldn't expect any more than 9 OL (7 active). The starting 5 are set: Gandy, Reyes, Fowler, Villarial, and Peters. But we'll need 2 active backup linemen: I predict Preston to backup C/G, and Gibson at T/G...Gibson's NFL starting experience at tackle, along with his preseason workouts at guard, make him a very valuable 6th man. Also expect the 8th and 9th spots to be filled by Geisinger and Butler, as well as practice squad slots for Merz and Pennington.

Which Bowl is that? The one I just clogged up about 20 min. ago?

I can't believe I actually watched that drivel If you hate the Bush administration and its policies so much, Mr. HeadUpHisAss, that's perfectly reasonable. But just say so, and use facts to back up your point. Stop believing in half-baked conspiracy theories like this one.