CincyBillsFan

The one thing they haven't tried on the O line since 2019 is high draft picks (1st or 2nd round) or top end free agents. This I think is the crux of the problem. If the Bills got the O line right, with the current defensive & play making talent on the roster they would win a Super Bowl. This is what is so frustrating to many Bills fans. Fix the damn line by going for QUALITY not bargain basement fire sales.

Going back to 2017 dilutes out the impact of the more recent and problematic focus on the defense at the expense of the offense. Given that Allen showed signs of being a franchise QB in 2019 let's focus on the 2020, 2021 & 2022 drafts and FA activities of the Bills. IMO if the Bills coaches/front office were offensive minded they would have recognized that Allen was on the cusp of greatness at the end of the 2019 season and thrown everything into supporting their emerging superstar QB on offense. But with the exception of the trade for Diggs in this period the Bills have bargain basement shopped for offensive players. During 2020 - 2022: * Two of their three 1st round picks (one went for Diggs) went to the D. * Two of their three 2nd round picks went to the D. * Their only blockbuster FA signing (Miller) went to the defense. Reverse this and have the only blockbuster FA signing be an offensive player and 2 of the their 1st round and 2 of their 2nd round picks also being offensive players and the Bills would be a much stronger team.

Allen is responsible for what, 85% of the offensive production? It's a testament to Allen's elite level of contribution that over the last 3 seasons the Bills offense, which gets less then 40% of the teams cap resources, has been a top 3 unit by both yards & points. Imagine the state of the Bills O without Allen.

Damn. reading that list made my head explode. There is serious turbulence in the QB air over the NFL. Things are going to be really different next season. Isn't it nice that for once the Bills are an island of tranquility surrounded by the storm winds QB Russian Roulette.

It seems like some Bills fans are getting nostalgic for the bad old days of football purgatory when every off season was a gold mine of speculation on how a "talented" Bills roster was just a QB away from the playoffs! Yea those were the days.

The recognition that alone among the elite NFL teams the Bills focus their resources on the defense at the expense of the offense is far from being a "pitiful rally cry". In fact it's an astute observation of what is holding Allen and by extension the Bills back. The failure of Buffalo to get the O line right amounts to a football 101 felony. And the Bills continued efforts to find play makers not named Diggs at bargain bin prices continues to blow up on them. It's obvious the Bills are following the Carolina playbook of depending on their elite, franchise QB to carry the offense on his back with average to below average talent while the lions share of resources go to the defense. This really didn't work for the Panthers beyond one season and I don't see it working in the current offensive crazed NFL. Fans from other teams who come on 2BD and criticize us for our frustration at wasting a uniquely gifted QB talent like Allen would be screaming bloody murder if the Chiefs were doing this to Mahomes, the Bengals to Burrow or the Eagles to Hurts. Hell Tampa Bay didn't expect Brady the GOAT to take them to a SB win without providing him with all sorts of offensive weapons. Take a look at what Jacksonville is doing with Lawrence to see how nobody is copying the Bills playbook here. Oh wait the Chargers are sort of with Herbert and how has that worked out for them? If it bugs you that Bills fans on a Bills message board constantly point this out then find another board to post on. I can't even conceive of jumping on another teams message board and bitching about their obsession with their QB or other top players. I never said Hurts didn't deserve credit. I and others are saying that Hurts has been gifted with an elite O line, numerous elite play makers and an offensive minded head coach. I am envious of what the Eagles are doing because it's exactly what we should ave done with Allen. IMO Hurts is a top 7 QB and Allen is a top 3 QB.

His O line gave him all the time in the world on 90% of his pass attempts. And the line opened up some big holes on his runs.

You haven't been out much I see. And I would add in what universe are Buffalo's skill players equal to those of the Bengals? It's insane to even suggest that we can match Ciny at WR or RB.

Yep, been there done that......................for 18 years! And he loses a lot of fumbles without Allen's ability to compensate with lots of TD's.

Bingo! If you notice he has Allen at #5 which gives him the flexibility to easily bump him to #1 or drop him to #10 depending on how he does early next season. Now to be fair to Cowherd he did caveat his list with other factors including offensive coaching, O line and skill players. So Allen at #5 reflects that Cowherd thinks having a defensive minded HC is a problem in the current NFL. Cowherd also mentioned that Allen's drop to #5 has a lot to do with the Bills poor O line.

Funny how that works isn't it? Allen has a solid game in his first playoff start on the road and all people talked about was his bad decision making when he tried to lateral the ball to Knox. BTW, the Bills didn't lose possession on that play and went on to kick a FG and push the game to OT. Lawrence throws FOUR bad INT's in one half of his playoff game at home and Cowherd and company dismiss it as a case of "sh@@ happens".

While it's true that "Philly's or KC's o-lines have nothing to do with us not making the SB" they sure had a hell of a lot to do with those two teams making the SB. Mahomes had a better season then Allen but Hurts didn't. The fact is that Hurts had fewer TO's then Allen because they didn't depend on him to win their games. Philly was a much better team from top to bottom and the only position where it was clear the Bills had the advantage over the Eagles was at QB. Against the Bengals Allen was hurried on half his pass attempts. HALF!

Given the current situation Allen can't really play all that much better. NO QB is going to be consistently good with that O line. IMO Allen is playing better then any QB in the NFL when you factor in the talent surrounding him on offense. And the Bills record and Allen's stats back me up on that.

Only a handful of incredible games? Really? "More often then not" - so you're saying that in more then half the games Allen has played in he's been "wildly inconsistent with accuracy, decision-making, ball security, and composure". Are you talking about his last 3 seasons? If so this statement is complete BS unsupported by the facts. This is wrong. And can you quit it with the "fumbles" stat please. It is very misleading to equate a fumble with a turnover if the fumble isn't lost.

We all agree that the O line is no good and going for the jugular may not be the best move given how little time Allen has to pass. And from this is born the "Allen needs to check down more to wide open receivers" meme. So who should Allen check the throw down to? Who among our skill players has elite speed to outrun coverage & tacklers? Who among our skill players can make multiple guys miss the tackle? Who among our skill players can read defenses like a book and know where to settle down to be open? And who among our skill players is a brute that can regularly break tackles? There is a reason they brought Beasley back and tried to land McCaffrey. Don't you think it was funny that in the 2 playoff games Beas had 9 targets catching 5 for 68 yards and a TD? And it's not like he was on the field much in those two games. It's clear to me that if the skill player has any of the attributes I listed above Allen will get him the ball. Beasley's skill is quick burst of speed and reading the coverage.

I don't think we're that far apart here and I agree with your basic premise. My point was that if you are going to direct the majority of your FA money & draft capital to the defense then it can't go out and surrender back to back long TD drives to start the game off. Worse,when Buffalo's offense actually showed some life and made it a one score game the Bengals promptly drove the length of the field using up a lot of time and taking back a two score lead. So I agree that in today's NFL you have to outscore your opponent particularly in the playoffs. The game has been tweaked to favor the O in every possible way. Therefore football teams must prioritize their offensive units even at the expense of their defenses. IMO the Bills offensive success over the last few seasons, which can't be denied based on their rankings and individual game performances, has been achieved in spite of the organizations strategic approach. This success can be attributed largely to the Bills having an absolute freak at QB. But when you compare the Bills O line and play makers to other top offenses they are deficient with the exception of QB and one WR. That the Bills are inconsistent and have an offense that can disappear more then the other top O's in the NFL is a direct result of how the Bills have emphasized defense over offense in building this team.

My guess is that they factored in that Allen was 3rd in the voting this season so right there he should be a top 5 candidate. Then they considered Allen's elite skill set and that bumped him into the top 3. Then they look at the Bills and asked the question "where do they have to get better"? and the logical answer is on the O line and in the number of play makers. In other words Allen is going to get more help.

There was some of that but at one point they flashed a stat where the QB had only been hurried on 5 of 33 pass attempts. This pales in comparison to Allen who is routinely hurried on one third to one half of his drop backs. Imagine enduring that game after game after game over a 17 game season? Also because the O lines yesterday were so good what you often saw was ONE guy or a blitzer get in quick and force Mahomes or Hurts to move round. But across the line you saw guys holding their blocks enabling the QB's to move and reestablish themselves for the throw.

I live in Cincinnati and follow the Bengals almost as closely as the Bills and Burrow does have multiple games were he doesn't play his best. As for Mahomes and the Chiefs all you're seeing is the brilliant ability of Andy Reid to correct mistakes and adjust the Offense when there is a problem. Everything I've seen over the last few years reinforces the following opinions: * Allen is elite and every bit as good s Mahomes & Burrow or any other QB in the NFL. * The Bills have struggled for YEARS on the O line. By any objective measure Buffalo's O line is bad. Allen hides many of it's deficiencies. Such poor O line lay will lead to inconsistencies on offense and the occasional games in which Allen struggles. * Allen has been handicapped by an organization that is not offensively geared. Success in the current NFL is overwhelmingly characterized by offensive coaches and organizations. Watching KC rebuild its O line while paying big bucks to Mahomes is exactly the template the Bills should be copying. Notice I didn't even include skill players. Sure Allen doesn't enjoy the riches in play makers that Tua, Hurts or Burrow enjoy but if you put a great O line in front of Allen and put Andy Reid as his coach Bills fans would already be celebrating a Super Bowl win or two with a more to come. Do I think McD & Bean can get the Bills a Super Bowl victory? Yes I do. But it starts this off season with a 180 degree pivot in the Bills approach to the offensive side of the ball.

I don't know about Allen but I was jealous of BOTH teams O lines. That the Bills have not worked aggressively to shore up this unit is a miss of epic proportions. They have the key piece place - an elite, once in a generation talent at QB. At first continuously pouring money and draft picks into the defensive line while allowing the O line to languish was a RISK. Then it turned into a MISTAKE when it didn't work. If it continues it will be an example of FOOTBALL MALPRACTICE.

Fumbles are not the same as INT's unless they're LOST. Throwing that number out is misleading. Notice how some of these folks equate a fumble that was NOT lost to an INT? That's simply insane and shows how they bastardize stats to prove a point.

Some are homers but most are being objective and simply disagree with you. And it's your opinion that what we're saying is "unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity". To me the idea that Allen & Mahomes should be compared as if they're on a level playing field is ludicrous on its face. And what have I said that you consider "BS"? BTW I find it really odd that you would have an issue with anyone on 2BD believing that Allen is every bit as good as Mahomes. Disagree, fine, but have an issue? Please. This is after all a Buffalo Bills message board.

Gee, imagine finding some Bills homers on a Bills message board? Wow what will they think of next? The real story here is why anyone would get upset about what Bills homers are saying at TWO BILLS DRIVE. And for the record coaching & the O line are huge factors in a teams and QB's success. Probably bigger then the talent of the skill players. And while there is a debate about how much better, if at all, the Chiefs RB's & WR's were compared to the Bills in 2022 there is no debate that over Allen's career he has had inferior RB & WR talent then Mahomes has had in his career. And that FACT directly impacts career playoff success. Let's stick with LOST fumbles please. Allen's TO 's are a direct result of his aggressive play behind a very bad O line and without the benefit of a reliable running game.

You conveniently ignore the very real differences in the offensive lines of the two teams. And O line plays a huge factor in a QB's success and a teams playoff success And again what I've seen more of are posters not trying to diminish Mahomes but rather trying to explain why Allen hasn't had the same playoff success. Statistically Allen is holing his own even with inferior offensive talent supporting him. And while the 2022 separation in WR talent between the Bills and Chiefs is probably closer then it's been in years there still was a KC advantage. Or did you miss the Bills having to call back Brown & Beasley? And even you can't dispute that over their careers, Mahomes has enjoyed a much superior WR group then Allen. Again the goal is not to diminish Mahomes. The goal is to present the facts that diminish the DIFFERENCE between the skill level of Mahome & Allen that you guys think is much greater then it is.

You have been misrepresenting the argument that most Bills fans have been making here. I think it's fair to say that a lot of Bills fans agree that Mahomes deserved the MVP THIS SEASON over Allen. At least that's my opinion. What annoys many of us is the assertion by you and others that Mahomes is a much better QB then Allen. This is an entirely different position then saying he deserved the 2022 MVP over Allen. When posters like you jump on here and accuse us of "homerism" because we may not believe Mahomes is better then Allen it rankles because the argument over who wins the 2022 MVP is not the same argument as to who is the better QB. And it's not "making excuses" to point out the very different circumstances Allen & Mahomes came into the league under and the continued disparity between the two in offensive coaching & surrounding talent. Those are easily observable FACTS that are hard to dispute. The reality is that Mahomes has benefited mightily by playing for a franchise that values offense over defense. In contrast Allen has had to rise above a Bills organization that favors defense over offense. From what my eyes tell me Allen is every bit as good a QB as Mahomes. The things you cite to declare Mahomes superior have more to do with the team element of football then differences in individual skills between these two. The FACT is that Mahomes plays on the superior team that has embraced the best way to win in the playoffs - focus on the offense without reservations.