CincyBillsFan
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Posts posted by CincyBillsFan
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Look you can cut the stats any way you want if you're trying to make Allen look inaccurate. Go ahead and take away Allen's two big chunk throws but how about that perfect 40 yard strike in the 2nd half that was dropped? Cherry picking stats works both ways!
And some of his incompletions were throw away's to avoid a sack. The fact that in spite of the Jags defensive front 7 mauling our offensive line the Bills did not "give" up a sack and a lot of that had to do with Allen throwing the ball away. It's funny how when Allen was sacked earlier in the season people yelled "why didn't he just throw the ball away". But when he throws the ball away they complain about his inaccuracy.
Look it's frustrating watching a raw rookie QB develop. But one fun thing is that you can use unconventional stats to evaluate his progress. In this game Allen made two great throws to convert back-to-back 3rd downs. Both were called back on penalty. Sure I was mad at the dumb penalties but I also recognized how good the throws were so I didn't feel as bad.
As for the video linked on this thread it seemed fair to me. Allen is making progress and he has a lot to work on. Did anyone think that wouldn't be the case at this point in the season?
13 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:Uh. Cam Newton ring a bell?
Russel Wilson?
Agree 100%! Newton makes running the football a big part of his game. He regularly runs out of the read option with McCaffrey.
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Some thoughts on McCaffrey:
* I figured he would shine in the NFL based on his work at Stanford. I also figured that it would depend on where he landed whether he would be good or elite. I prayed that NE didn't draft him as he would probably be working on his 2nd consecutive 1,000/1,000 yard season and killing us in the process!
* I actually thought Carolina was a poor fit as Cam Newton isn't exactly known for his soft touch and check-down passes. That he's put up the receiving numbers that he has shows me that Cam has matured and that McCaffrey must be open on almost every play. The other element going on here is that the Panthers run the read option with Newton/McCaffrey to perfection. I think that Shady & Allen could also be dangerous running this type of play more often.
* When you talk about whether McCaffrey was worth a top 10 first round pick consider this little factoid. Down here Cincinnati in 2017 the Bengals drafted wide receiver John Ross #9, right after McCaffrey was taken by Carolina. I remember folks saying at the time how the Panthers had picked CMAC to high and that the Bengals got the better offensive player in the speedster Ross. Well Ross couldn't break into the starting line-up his rookie year and while he's been starting this year his career receptions stand at 14 catches for 176 yards & 5 TD's. McCaffrey a RUNNING BACK who will likely hit 1,000 yards rushing this year has career RECEIVING numbers (including 1 playoff game) of 157 catches for 1362 yards & 11 TD's! Just goes to show that draft picks in any round are a crap shoot.
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Throwing out the disclaimer that it's way to early to tell, before the draft I rated the QB's as:
1) Mayfield
2) Allen
3) Darnold
4) Rosen
5) Jackson
And IMO things haven't changed since then and I would rank the rookies in the exact same way.
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Edmonds did not have a good game yesterday and his play probably contributed to the Bills getting gashed up the middle in the 2nd quarter. But with that being said he is playing the "QB" position of the defense and he is a rookie. IMO we should be excited about the guys potential going forward. He's shown flashes of being a dominating LB and considering how young he is even for a rookie, Edmonds is going to be a stud at MLB for years to come.
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6 hours ago, jrober38 said:
I don't. I think that's a ridiculous claim.
Mahomes is a natural passer.
Allen is currently just a really good athlete playing QB.
There's a huge difference. Mahomes isn't throwing WR screens into the turf like Allen did yesterday.
Suggesting Allen would be putting up MVP #s on another team, when he's currently completing like 50% of his throws and throwing for like 150 yards a game is totally crazy.
Again, I asked would he be throwing for 300 yards if he was on the Cheifs right now, not that he would be putting up HOF numbers. There is a difference.
Funny how those of you who say Allen isn't a "natural" thrower because he put a WR screen pass into the turf ignore the several outstanding throws he did make. I just don't get it. Looking at Allen's entire body of passing work this season and he appears to be plenty accurate to me. His issues have been reading the D and pocket awareness - both things that rookie QB's struggle with in the NFL. And both things that can be learned through playing.
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6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:
I don’t and think you are too easily dismiss how good Mahomes is. Allen would definitely hit some bombs but because of his mechanics, he can’t make those passes consistently. That’s why I wanted him to sit like Mahomes and not be forced in too early to work on those mechanics. Mahomes was a 64% passer in college and is 67% in the pros. Allen has never been higher than 56% on any level.
i know there are a million excuses and it’s great to see him make plays without being a consistent passer. But for him to be the guy we need, he needs to win with his arm first then his legs.
Why? First of all, Cam and Wilson were much superior passers than Allen/ Jackson right away. Allen and Jackson are winning games with huge running plays and a few big passing plays. But they are both below average nfl passers at this point. I really don’t see how this can be disputed.
To be clear I think Mahomes is a great QB. He & Goff are the best of the young QB's (less then 5 years) in the league. Also I didn't say Allen would be putting up Mahomes numbers I asked whether he would be having a couple of 300 yard games at KC and IMO the answer is yes.
As far as short passing accuracy goes Allen is good enough to dump the ball off to the Chief's TE & RB. And who cares what these QB's accuracy was in college at this point. Allen has shown that he's plenty accurate enough.
Allen is winning with his arms AND legs and at this point that's fine with me. And while agree with you that Wilson was a better passer right out the gate IMO Cam was not. Again to my old eyes Cam & Allen share a number of similar traits on the field - strong arms, athletic play, can kill you with their legs, a burning desire to win AND leadership.
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54 minutes ago, jrober38 said:
At some point defenses will figure out how to slow down his running, or he'll get hurt (like essentially every running QB does). Once that happens, he'll need to progress dramatically as a passer if he's going to make it in this league. All the top QBs are top players because they're elite passers and Allen has miles to go in that department.
This is easier said then done with a QB that has the arm strength and medium/long pass accuracy that Allen has. Sure, teams can adjust to stop the planned QB runs but that will open up other opportunities downfield.
Serious question for folks, if you put Allen on KC right now do you think he would be throwing fro 300 yards? I do.
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7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:
Isn’t Josh Allen essentially Lamar Jackson? And that’s honestly what I expected as I thought both were very raw.
allen is much faster than I thought. And he did what he needed to do to win. But you aren’t going to be able to win consistently running the ball as a qb. But he made plays when he needed to.
Allen has much better arm talent then Jackson.
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Sure there is still a long way to go before we truly know what the Bills QB situation is but how can you not be optimistic?
Yesterday, Allen showed us why some scouts felt he had the highest upside of ANY of the rookie QB's. Does he have a lot to work on? Absolutely but that's what makes this exciting for me. The kid has proven to be a quick study and the things he needs to do better at can and will be learned. The intangibles, stuff that is hard or impossible to learn, like his leadership skills& physical tools, have already been demonstrated this year.
And for the record, Allen could very well have a couple of bad games in the following 5 weeks. That comes with a rookie QB but the overall trajectory is clearly up.
And as an added bonus we probably have found our backup QB for the next couple of years. this is no small thing. It seems to me that we've completely turned it around the last couple of weeks going from the abject misery of our rookie QB out with injury and Peterman /Anderson as the only options at QB. It's actually a startling turn around IMO.
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3 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:
Yeah, he made some good throws and that's encouraging, but you guys are overreacting. Josh has a long way to go.
Both things can be true. Allen does have a long way to go but IMO we're not overreacting here. This was a potentially tough comeback game for Allen. A 6 week hiatus and playing a top 5 defense. There was plenty of reasons to believe that he would struggle today. Instead he had command of his game and the offense. IMO once they add some more weapons on offense you'll see Allen start to put up those gaudy numbers that gets everyone excited.
The other thing about this kid is he truly doesn't give a rats fanny about the stats. He is about one thing and one thing only - winning football games. He has an infectious attitude that resembles that of Baker Mayfield. This is part of that mysterious IT factor that we all saw today but doesn't show up in the stats except for wins & losses.
8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:I'm in the minority on this but I don't care if my QB runs a lot as long he is productive doing it. I've always felt a mobile QB is the best possible piece for an offense to have. It's incredibly difficult to defend against someone like Allen who can burn you up the middle on runs, but also chuck the ball way downfield if you try to stack the box. If you leave a LB to spy on him you leave the door open for slants and crossers. Lamar Jackson has led the Ravens to an average of 29 points per game in his 2 starts. He's doing it mostly by running. Maybe that won't be sustainable for long but it is effective.
I agree 100%. IMO Allen's game is beginning to resemble Cam Newton's and that's a good thing. I would love to see more read option plays with McCoy & Allen. In the college game these types of high-bred QB's have been taking over the game the last few years. Allen's physical tools are such that surrounded with the right talent the Bills could go from being a bad offense to a potent one in a single season.
36 minutes ago, Steptide said:I don't think anyone's pissed. People just want better than 8 completed passes.
But how much of that was the flow of the game? First you had a couple of quality completions lost by penalty. Then you had a bad drop on what would have been a 35 yard pass completion. Add in the fact that the Bills D got run all over in the 2nd quarter limiting offensive possessions and once the Bills got the lead they got very conservative and you only get 8 completions. Until the offense is upgraded this is how the Bills will be operating.
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1 hour ago, The Jokeman said:
5. Jackson
4. Rosen
3. Darnold
2. Allen
1. Mayfield
This is the one I would go with. Mayfield is way ahead of everyone else but Allen has started to separate himself from the rest at #2 mainly because he's played well against a couple of very good defenses (Minnesota & the Jags). If this is the order we get at the end of the season we should all be very happy about the Bills QB play going forward.
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As usual the NFL almost ruined a good old fashioned snoberknocker game with an overabundance of flags. This league needs to sort out the officiating before they strangle the goose laying all those golden eggs. My takes from the game:
* The defense was both great and bad today. On the positive side the goal line stand was huge and the 2 INT's and a couple of 3 & outs showed folks why this defense is one of the best in the NFL. On the negative side the Bills were manhandled up front in the 2nd quarter as the Jags ran it down their throat. In today's game the Buffalo offense didn't disappear in the 2nd quarter after exploding out to a 14 - 0 1st quarter lead - they simply didn't get many opportunities as the Jags held the ball most of the quarter.
* Josh Allen had a very good game. He didn't show any rust and his game today is an example of why stats can be misleading. The TD pass was one of the best throws I've seen any Bills QB make. This was the play that showed why the Bills took Allen and why some scouts thought Allen had the most upside of any of the rookie QB's. Keep in mind had the Bills not committed penalties on 2 straight 3rd down conversions that Allen made (3r & 5 great roll out throw & 3rd & 15 great pocket pass for a 1st down) in the 2nd quarter the Bills would have got at least a FG on that drive. And lets not forget the beautiful 35 yard pass that Allen threw that was dropped. That also was a drive that likely would have gone for at least a FG.
* It seemed to me that the game has slowed down for Allen. Those on this thread who said he still struggled in the pocket are flat out wrong. I thought Allen's pocket presence was outstanding today as he moved very well and kept his eyes down field. Except for maybe 3 passes his throws were on target or smart throw away's to avoid the sack. To be honest the pass protection was not great today and Allen's mobility allowed the Bills to avoid several sacks. My other take-away is that Allen has that IT factor. The way he interacts with his teammates and how they respond to him is clear to see. No pouting like Rosen with this guy. He is hard nosed and tough.
* As far as Allen's running goes - this is who he is. It will always be a big part of his game. In this way he resembles Cam Newton and while an injury is always possible Allen's legs are a big part of why he will soon emerge as a serious dual threat QB. Think about his 2 big runs today. The first was the TD run. It's not easy for this team to score red zone TD's and that 14 yard TD run was a thing of beauty. His 45 yard run in the 4th flipped the field big time and contributed to the win. If anything I want to see them use the read option more with Allen & McCoy, much like Carolina uses it with McCaffrey & Newton.
* Notice how some of the western NY sports writers have been lukewarm about Allen's performance today. Mostly the usual suspects who went in thinking they were going to write Allen's obituary and instead had to begrudgingly acknowledge that he exceeded expectations. I don't get it. From the very beginning some of these guys have acted like drafting Allen was a personal affront. The kid seems to be perfect for Buffalo as he truly likes the city, the fans and his opportunity to play for the Bills.
* I thought that the offensive game plan was very well constructed. Sure the Bills got to conservative once they had the lead but that's how this team is built.
* The Bills need to do something about the penalties. To cancel out back to back 3rd & long conversions is simply unacceptable. And having to many guys on the field on a punt giving the Jags a 1st down is beyond stupid. They need to clean this up ASAP.
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12 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:
The 21st Century has eight plus decades to go. Instant gratification get the best of this guy?
The way I answered the question is that when I die this century effectively dies from my POV so I'm not thinking of it as 80 more years.
And my answer assumes that after I die I don't get to sit up their in Heaven in my lounge chair drinking a Molson Golden while looking down and watching my beloved Bills play. On 2nd thought that might be the definition of HELL! Never mind!
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At present I would say NO in spite of it being a remarkably low bar. But I believe that when all is said and done Allen will not only be the best Bills QB of this century but right up there with the Bill's Giants of the previous century.
As an aside, does any NFL franchise have a weaker list of QB's in the 21st century then the Buffalo Bills? Sometimes when you write it down it makes it look even worse then you remember it. But then again that 18 year streak of missing the playoffs has a reason.
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We should draft a new QB every year and if hey don't look good in the week 3 exhibition game declare them a bust and sign a guy who hasn't played in the NFL for at least 3 months.
If that guy has a good game in his first outing then the Bills should ignore his history and declare him the franchise QB.
When he inevitably fails by seasons end, we start the whole process all over again!
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From the day Allen was drafted there has been an irrational dislike of the guy. It's hidden among a flurry of passive-aggressive verbiage like "I hope Allen works out but I know he's a bust" (what the heck is that?).
Sure the guy is a raw talent but he has incredible physical tools; seems to have the right attitude; comes across as a decent person and loves playing in Buffalo. And while there were draft gurus who thought the Bills reached for Allen there were others who believed he had the highest upside of ANY of the rookie QB's. And we know for a fact that Arizona made a strong push to take Allen ahead of the Bills.
I mean regardless of how Allen plays Sunday this whole notion that they should have gone with Barkley is crazy.
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The way I see it is I'll be thrilled if Allen follows in Goff's footsteps. You know, declared a "bust" his rookie season then surrounded with talent in his 2nd year and now in his 3rd year functioning as an elite level QB leading a 10 - 1 team. Now that would be sweet and Allen would still be on his rookie contract.
Have I missed anything?
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Fun game to watch and agree with those saying that young QB's with a gunslinger mentality like Mahomes should be forcing the ball which results in interceptions. A couple of observations:
* I liked how Mahomes tried to keep the guy out of the end zone after the fluke INT. Most QB's would have just stood there and watched the defender run it in but Mahomes put some real effort into keeping him out. It was probably foolish for him to do what he did but I liked the effort.
* While the game was fun to watch it wasn't IMO an "instant classic". Way to many penalties and some of those flags seemed to be for nothing. I also noticed how late in the game the refs went into a hockey mindset and wouldn't call obvious holds by both teams for fear of impacting the outcome. I still say one of the biggest problems facing the NFL is to many penalties and even worse the calls are often very inconsistent because so many of the rules are subjective.
* I haven't read this thread from the beginning so excuse me if this has already been talked about but did others catch the announcers describing the #1 factor in Goff going from a "bust" his rookie year to being an elite QB today? They were pretty clear that coaching made all the difference. Does this apply to the current Bills situation? I mean any staff that thought Peterman was a starting NFL QB can't exactly be called QB savvy.
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I see this game looking a lot like the Tennessee game - low scoring and the Bills pull it out at the end.
And for the record, Allen will be continuing his streak of playing against the toughest defenses in the NFL. My sense is he'll have a mediocre game against Jacksonville but the defense will carry us. After the Jags though things get a lot easier for the rookie QB as he'll finally NOT be playing top ranked defenses. To put things in perspective Allen has gone against:
Baltimore - about 2 quarters on the road
LA Chargers - full game
Vikings - full game on the road
Packers - full game on the road
Titans - full game
Texans - 3 quarters on the road.
Those are some very tough defenses Allen has faced and now he has to face another tough one in the Jags. This is why the last 5 games of the season are interesting - there will be a big drop in the caliber of defenses he has faced and we might actually start to see some real progress with Allen.
This is why Allen plays the last 6 games.
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Beebe was a very underrated receiver. He was like the offenses version of the defenses Phil Hansen.
I still remember his 4 TD receiving day against Pittsburgh and of course it was his 40 yard TD catch that started the Bills on their epic comeback against Houston.
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9 hours ago, Ayjent said:
Josh Allen had a good game against Minnesota, but the first quarter was full of opportunities for the team - two of their drives resulting in scores were after take aways on a short field, and the other was helped by two personal fouls. They had two decent long drives (50+ yds) the whole game, and the rest were just cashing in on good D and turnovers. Not knocking his play, he made the most of the opportunities and it is by far his best game, but 15 completions and less than 200 yds wasn't nearly as good as leading the Offense having 5 drives of 50+ yards resulting in TDs with a good deal of chunk plays (47 yd to Foster, 33yds to Jones, 22 yds to Holmes, 43 yds to Foster).
Barkley looked more consistent than Allen in those respective games and had better command of the Offense. The Bills moved the ball very well all game because they had complimentary passing and running. Granted Allen played a better D - but as far as overall QB play - I think you can objectively say Barkley played better than Allen because he was more consistent and helped sustain longer drives and more of them. I'm not saying start Barkley if Allen is healthy, but its something to keep in mind with Allen's play which hasn't really been very good with any consistency. A couple of flashes here and there, but really not much to get excited about outside of the first half of the Viking game. Allen looks better than I thought he would passing, but the Offense looks pretty meh with him at QB most of the time, and he wasn't playing that well before he got injured. Maybe it will come together, but he's got to get a lot better at a lot of things. He kinda reminds me of Ryan Tannehill
I disagree. Allen opened the game leading the Bills on a 9 play 75 yard drive to put Buffalo up 7 - 0 and set the tone for the day. Later in the half Allen led the Bills on an 11 play 65 yard TD drive.
And we can argue all day about subjective stuff like which QB had more breaks in their game though I doubt the Vikings drop those two INT's that Barkley almost threw. But one thing I do know for sure is that Minnesota has a better defense then the NY Jets and is a playoff contender. I also suspect that the Jets laid down Sunday.
As far as "consistency" goes I'm not sure how you can claim Barkley is more consistent than Allen based on ONE game? Keep in mind that Allen quarterbacked the Bills through the toughest schedule in the NFL. It's hard for a rookie QB to be consistent surrounded by mediocre (at best) offensive talent while playing the hardest schedule in the league.
At this point given the high level of competition he has faced; the lack of offensive tools at his disposal and the fact that he's a raw rookie, I don't see how Allen can remind someone of anyone currently in the NFL. We just haven't seen enough of his work to know much of anything. That's why he needs to play the rest of this year and all of next year before we can decide who he is.
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A couple of opinions on common themes in these Barkley/Allen threads:
* Barkley has earned another start. WTH is this? So now the criteria for earning a starting job by a back-up QB is to play a solid game. Isn't this why they brought Barkley in.
* Go with Barkley, who has the "hot hand". Who cares if Barkley has the hot hand or not. Does Fitz having had a hot hand alter the fact that Tampa Bay will be desperately looking for a QB in the off season?
* The ultimate upside with Barkley as the Bills QB is 8 - 8. Look familiar? So folks want to put off developing a franchise QB (or finding out that he isn't the guy) because we might win a couple more games with Barkley? For the last 20 years the Bills have occupied football's equivalent of PURGATORY (though I would call it hell) where they hang around 500 and everyone points to next year as the year - over & over & over & over & over & over &.......Again. Count me out.
* What if Allen looks bad? Then we learn something. And if Allen stinks up the show against Jacksonville he still starts the next week and the week after that. That we're even having this debate in Billsland is amazing to me. Allen may or may not be the guy to lead us out of the football wilderness we've occupied the last 20 years but he offers us at least a chance to break our cycle of extreme mediocrity. Barkley as a starter is a GUARANTEE that we continue to try to push the boulder up the hill.
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3 hours ago, Ayjent said:
Between Allen, Peterman and Anderson - yeah Allen was head and shoulders above the other two. But you can't deny that Barkley had the best QB performance by a Bill this season and it's not even close. I'm fine with them starting either Barkley or Allen. I think Allen's pocket presence is still problematic. He holds the ball too long and hasn't shown any consistency in moving in the pocket to make time for himself. I don't know if that is something that will improve with presnap recognition, I'm hopeful that it does. Everything else seems to be there, but that ability to make good quick decisions is what separates the superstars from the busters.
I disagree. Allen's overall performance against Minnesota was better IMO. While the passing stats between the two were similar Allen contributed a lot more as a runner. On top of that the Vikings were a much better team then the Jets. I just don't get how folks declare the Barkley effort Sunday, which was good, to be better then Allen's against Minny.
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2 hours ago, Like A Mofo said:
Bills will finish 3-3, final record 6-10. Josh Allen shows some progress, and OL shows improvement and arrow is pointing way up for the 2019 offseason
This is the most realistic optimistic take IMO. Though we still have 12 days to dream.................
Bills QB Josh Allen is changing skeptical minds. ---- Brady Quinn apparently prefers potential over results
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I don't get how these people think. Of course we're happy that Allen had an overall good game and showed flashes of brilliance. None of us are saying carve his bust for the HOF but with a rookie QB as raw as Allen in which the Bills used a #7 pick we want to see him succeed? Right?
We know that Allen is likely to have a couple of rough games over these final 5 weeks. That goes with the territory. But games like the one against Jacksonville remind us of why the Bills took this guy as high as they did. If it works out with Allen the Bills are back in the mix and we can expect yearly playoff runs. If he's a bust, as some of these folks seem to be wishing for, we're back to ground zero and face another lost decade.