CincyBillsFan

You don't think the unique offense that the Ravens are running has anything to do with this? You don't think the Ravens superior O-line and stable of excellent TE's don't have anything to do with Jackson's success? You don't think the OC & HC being committed to run this offense didn't help Jackson out?

Why are the trolls out in force making this about comparing Allen to Jackson? It's apples & oranges. I love what Jackson is doing. It's igniting excitement & creativity into the NFL. The college game is so much better football then the pro game because every week you have run option QB's going up against pocket passers going up against pass happy spread offenses. You don't see one size fitting all in the college game. How much better would the pro game be if you had multiple Jackson's and multiple Brady's and multiple Rogers and multiple Allens. All playing different styles of QB. But enough with the stupid comparisons between Allen & Jackson and even worse arguing the Bills should have drafted Jackson instead. Because the same argument could be made about Cleveland & the Jets who took other QB's even higher in the draft.

And done what with him? Force him to be a pocket passer? How may yards does Jackson run for behind the Bills O-line - especially last year? If the Bills draft Jackson last year he fails. If the Jets drafted Jackson he also fails. If Arizona had drafted Jackson last year he fails. If Cleveland had drafted Jackson last year he fails. Hat's off to Baltimore and their coaches for deciding to think out of the box and try to do something unique in the NFL. Only TIME will tell if this experiment will work. Don't forget out of ALL the teams that took QB's in last years draft ONLY Baltimore was a Playoff level team. All the others were in the middle of tear downs.

It's fascinating watching the Ravens and Jackson successfully run a classic college offense. If you watch a lot of college football you've seen this before. I still think durability is going to be a problem over the long haul but who knows. You can see the problem the Raven's O presents a defense. One thing you notice is just how strong the Ravens are on their O-line and at TE. And Ingrahm is a load. Any fall off in the play of these units, particularly due to injury, would definitely put a crimp in this offenses production. To be fair if Jackson played for t Bills he would be facing a disaster of Rosenesque proportions. There is much to be said about being in the right place at the right time. And like everything in football it's good to be lucky. Jackson should have been intercepted on that batted ball. Still I'm thinking the ravens are going to put a beating on the Pats tonight.

The good, bad and interesting about today's game: The Good: * We won the game and raised our record to 6 - 2. The best start since 1993. That's 27 years! * The defensive adjustment at half was brilliant. To play so poorly against the run in the 1st half and then to shut the run down in the 2nd half is good defensive coaching & execution. * Daboll added some nice wrinkles to the offense in the 1st half and he got Singletary the ball. Singletary went a long way towards showing us that he is the desperately needed big play guy on offense. Breakout game for him. * Special teams made a huge play with a great KO return. * Beasley caught a TD pass for the 3rd game in a row. * Allen was accurate on BOTH his long throws. * The key play where Allen & Brown converted the 3rd & 18 late in the 4th to seal the win was a thing of beauty. * #97 is a stud. The Bad: * The run defense in the 1st half was terrible. It reminded me of last years 2nd quarter performance in the Jacksonville game. The defense also let the Redskins out of the hole a couple of times robbing the Bills of the field position benefit of your opponent going into the wind. Also the Bills did not force a TO playing a raw rookie QB. * The Bills short yardage offense was horrible. It's bad when BOTH play calling & execution on short yardage and goal line situations was so poor. The play calling after the Bills had a 1st & goal at the 2 in the first quarter was the worst I've seen. * DaBold went into a shell in the 3rd quarter. * I may catch heat here but I thought Foster misplayed the Allen deep ball. With the wind conditions today a WR has to be prepared to track the ball in the air as it WILL move around. That pass wasn't that far off and had Foster taken a couple of steps towards the ball it may have been a TD. Instead he kept running the pattern straight down the sideline. * The officiating. Not calling a PI on the missed deep pass to Brown is unacceptable. You can't let the DB wrap up the WR's legs BEFORE the ball arrives. Had Brown been free to move he easily tracks the ball and makes a catch for a big gain. The Interesting: * I thought BOTH deep balls were thrown well by Allen. The first to Brown was almost caught in spite of a guy wrapping Brown's legs up well before the ball got there. The 2nd was misplayed by Foster IMO. * The pass play before Allen converted a 3rd & 18 to Brown was an amazing play in spite of Brown dropping the ball. Allen is one of only a couple of NFL QB's that could have avoided the sack on that play. He then threw a perfect pass that should have been caught and scored a TD. This is why we should be optimistic about Allen's future as our QB. * We had another almost Allen fumble. I get people's concern and the argument about these kinds of designed runs. But keep in mind that on that last TD drive there were TWO big plays that benefited from Allen's threat to run: 1) The first was on the completion to Brown that converted a 3rd & 18. It was Allen's threat to run that brought the safety off his coverage of Brown, 2) the 2nd was the Singletary run. That was the read option play that Allen almost lost a fumble on. This time Allen read the D, gave the ball to Motor who went in for the TD untouched. These are the benefits that we get from Allen running that don't show up on the stat line.

And we definitely DON'T want that. Go JETS!

That's fair and if Allen keeps fumbling then the TO's will pile up. At this point and taking into consideration the circumstances I'm not worried. If between now and the end of next season he's fumbled over 20 times then it is a problem. My annoyance is with those who are using the fumbles as just another way to beat on Allen. And when they put out stats insinuating that all his fumbles = TO's then it gets my back up. I love honest and fair critiques of Allen's play (like you and others offer). I tend to view his development through rose colored glasses so it's refreshing to get a straight read on how he's doing. So much depends on his being the guy so as a Bills fan I'm rooting for him big time. Bottom line is that the fumbles are something to keep and eye on but folks shouldn't be over reacting to them.

Of course it's misleading. You listed 7 INT's and 8 Fumbles like they were equally bad events. The HONEST way to show the information would have been that Allen has thrown 7 INT's & LOST 4 fumbles. Fumbles that are recovered by the offense are not the same as fumbles lost. If we throw a screen to Singletary today that gains 50 yards and he fumbles at the end but Beasley was hustling down the field and recovers the fumble is that the same as Singletary losing the fumble? I don't think so. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. There are plenty of legit reasons to criticize Allen's QB play and he must improve his game. But focusing on his TOTAL fumbles in an offense where he is asked to do more with the ball then many QB's and when the NFL stats clearly show the Bills DO NOT have a problem with fumbles is misleading. It reflects an agenda IMO.

This ASSUMES that had he not fumbled Allen would have broken the tackle and either thrown the ball away, run for + yards or hit a throw. How many times has that happened on an Allen fumble? If he's being tackled 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage and in trying to get away fumbles how is that LOST yardage any worse then his simply being sacked? Now if we lose the ball that is BAD. Not to beat a dead horse but if the fumble happens on a sack the yards were lost whether he fumbled or not unless it's one of those weird plays where the ball bounces backwards another 5 - 10 yards. In BOTH fumbles Allen had that we recovered against the Eagles he was sacked and lost the ball. The yards & downs lost were pretty much the same whether he fumbled or not.

I get what you're saying PlayoffsPlease. I'm scratching my head at all the posters claiming that fumbles lead to lost yardage. That's ONLY true if while moving around Allen loses a fumble by simply dropping the ball. Which happens in the NFL though very rarely. Every Allen fumble I can remember this season has been a FORCED fumble. That is if Allen doesn't fumble on the play we still lose yardage on a sack. That's why Allen fumbles recovered by the Bills amount to nothing. The ones that hurt are the ones that we lose. Now I get that the more you fumble the more there's a chance we lose the ball. But this emphasis on Allen fumbles seems like a new way to bash him now that he seems to have (knock on wood) gotten more careful in NOT throwing INT's.

This is a prime example of a misleading stat. Allen has only lost 4 fumbles and that's the ONLY stat that matters. Adding in Allen fumbles recovered by the Bills is just your way of making the numbers look bad for Allen which is disingenuous. Last week Wendt fumbled when he was sacked but the ball bounced back to him. Net result was NO IMPACT on the game! Funny how the other Allen who QB's the Panthers was getting kudos for NOT throwing an INT, until of course he threw 3 in one game, but most people didn't realize that the guy has LOST something like 4 or 5 fumbles. Panther fans joke about it on their board. Fumbles happen when a QB like Allen tries to make plays and is executing a game plan that put's the ball in his hand in risky situations a lot.

I agree. Now it's possible that Singletary isn't able to carry the load but we have to find out. If he's not up to it then we have a glaring need in the draft/free agency market. If he is the guy, and there's been a couple of recent 3rd round RB picks who were studs in their rookie years, then we can focus on others areas in the off season. But let's not forget the horrific Bills screen stats. For ALL screen plays this season (includes BOTH conventional RB screens & TE/WR screens) the Bills are 11/16 for 34 yards. And the 5 incompletes were NOT bad Allen passes but deliberate throwaway's and drops. Looking at these stats I don't know what's worse the terrible production or the anemic amount of times the Bills even attempted screen plays. My concern is that the Bills aren't trying screen passes because their O-line can't get out and block for them effectively. What other explanation is there for attempting only 2 per game? But yea lets put a 15 - 20 touch load on Singletary today and see what happens. My guess is that good things we'll happen but we need to know one way or the other.

Are you seriously suggesting that Allen should have thrown a "touch pass with a little air under it" on that SPECIFIC play? I'm sorry but Allen Derangement Syndrome is real.

I think there's two competing issues here: 1) How will Haskin's do against the Bills? He's been horrible so far in limited action: Haskins stats so far this year: 12/22; 54% completion; for 140 yards; 0 TD's & 4 INT's; QB rating of 34.5. But he obviously will benefit from a long week of working with the 1st team and being part of the game plan. But even with that said if our defense is even half as good as we think it is Haskins should struggle in Buffalo on Sunday. 2) How will Haskin's do as an NFL QB? This is a different answer and having watched all his games at the Ohio State University I think the odds are that he will be a solid NFL QB. He has some deficiencies, such as mobility. But he also throws a beautiful ball and can make all the throws. If the Bill's allow him to get comfortable in the pocket he might very well hit a couple of deep shots against us. As for those saying they would have preferred Case Keenum? I'm not sure of the logic here as his stats aren't bad: Keenum's stats so far this year: 126/188; 67% completion; for 1343 yards; 9 TD's & 4 INT's; QB rating of 94.8 Yea, we have a lot more film on him but he strikes me a a guy that can get hot hit the short passes and have long, time consuming drives. Kind of like he was doing at Minn before the concussion.

Then we should be looking for a new defensive coordinator and personnel after the game. Haskins stats so far this year: 12/22; 54% completion; for 140 yards; 0 TD's & 4 INT's; QB rating of 34.5. And for those saying they would have preferred Case Keenum? I'm not sure of the logic here as his stats aren't bad: Keenum's stats so far this year: 126/188; 67% completion; for 1343 yards; 9 TD's & 4 INT's; QB rating of 94.8 YoloinOhio as a fellow Buckeye fan I'm sure you would agree that we must put pressure on Haskins. He is not an athletic QB and gets rattled by pressure. If the Bill's don't and allow him to get comfortable back in the pocket he could pick them apart. And if this happens my confidence in this coaching staff will plummet. It doesn't take a defensive guru to figure out how to approach Haskin's at QB. I can't even begin to imagine the carnage Belechick would inflict on the poor guy.

We would all like to know ASAP. If Allen isn't the guy I like Joe Burrow a lot. But the reality is that given the variables involved there is NO way you can truly judge most NFL QB's in less then 3 years. Everything from the surrounding talent to the coaching to the teams offensive philosophy impacts how accurately and quickly you can determine if a QB is going to make it. That's a tremendous amount of variability for EACH QB. And variability of this kind humbles statistics of every kind. The only time you might be able to get a quick read is if they're either put into a disastrous position and you ruin them (see Josh Rosen) or they are truly awful (see Ryan Leaf). Or you can get an early read on whether they are that "guy" if you put them in a great position like Mahommes or even Lamar Jackson was. Or take Kyler Murray. He came into a tremendous opportunity and is running the same basic offense he ran in college. More importantly he has a coach who is a proponent/creator of the offensive philosophy that he's being asked to execute. Let's say the Bills didn't draft Allen last year and took Murray this year. With our current skill players and offensive philosophy Murray would be teetering on looking like a bust. His numbers would be awful. The reality is that for the overwhelming majority of young QB's it takes 3 - 5 years. Allen has shown enough to me to indicate that he's definitely got the potential to be that "guy". That means he has to get the full 3 - 5 years or we just keep running in place as a franchise waiting for QB lightening to strike.

Well we will have to agree to disagree then. I think any QB in the NFL would have struggled to hit 300 yards passing with last seasons offense and team decision making. They would have had a better chance this year but not by much. In the game against Green bay KC had a journeyman QB hit 24/36 passes for 267 yards & 2 TD's throwing to the Chiefs stable of skill players. This was against a solid defense in GB. Allen would have had multiple 300 yard games if he was the Chiefs QB the last 2 seasons. To look at our RB's & TE's and say the only thing holding up the offense is Allen is not supported by the evidence. I would have thought this teams dismal screen pass production would have been enough to convince folks the problem is NOT with Allen. But I guess that's wishful thinking when an agenda is involved.

I think the push back is against people blaming Allen for the lack of 300 yard games as if he's the main reason for not hitting that number. If you put Mahommes on this offense in 2018 & 2019 with every thing else the same I'm not convinced he would have a 300 yard game yet. Are you? I also bet that if Allen had been QBing the Chiefs the last 2 years he would have had multiple 300 yard games. BTW, did you see the Buffalo News breakdown of the Bill's struggles with the screen pass? This season they are 11/16 for 34 yards throwing screen passes to their RB's, TE's & WR's! That's an extraordinary lack of production that can not be blamed on Allen. Hell only attempting these kind of passes twice per game is alarming. Oh and before you say Allen missed his screen receivers those incompletions were all the result of deliberate throwaways because the D was sitting on the play. As for having a "man crush" on Allen being the reason we defend him, well all I can say is that if Allen doesn't work out the Bills are set back another 3 - 5 years. And who wants that? Only someone suffering from dementia wouldn't give Allen until the end of his 3rd year to see if he's the guy. And if he isn't then we're back to square one in the draft. So yea we desperately want him to succeed and this involves giving him the benefit of the doubt. And that's not to hard to do when you see numbers like how many and how crappy the Bills screen pass game is.

For starters because the success of the play action pass depends on the success of the running game. A healthy running game that has the potential to break off long runs can really open up a passing attack. The Patriots did not focus any attention of Gore & Yeldon. They knew that even if the line opened up a massive hole Gore was good for 20 yards tops. There was no way either Bill's RB in that game was going to take it 60 yards to the house. Instead the Pats focused on taking away Allen's runs and short passes and forced him to throw downfield to beat them. There's also the mental aspect. How much more settling must it be for a young QB to have a dangerous running game at his back? Do you think it helps Lamar Jackson? As an aside what do you think about the Bill's screen pass production? Pretty amazing huh. Do you blame Allen for that? The Bills can't run the ball in a way that scares people (chunk yardage) and they can't execute screen passes to their RB's, TE's or WR's that gain yardage. Gee, that's just what we need to optimize the chances of success for our young QB!

How in hell is Allen supposed to throw for 300 yards if this damn team can't execute simple screen passes? Have you folks seen the article in the Buffalo News detailing the AMAZING production we have had throwing RB screen and TE/WR screen passes? Here's what we've done this season: * 5/8 for 23 yards on RB screen passes! * 6/8 for 11 yards on screens to TE's/WR's! And you can bet almost all those incompletions were balls deliberately thrown into the ground to avoid a loss of yardage or an INT on the play. If this isn't an indictment of our collection of skill players & O-lineman I don't know what is. I suspected the production on screens was bad but this is biblical badness. Complete INCOMPETENCE on the part of our offense. Is there a fatal flaw in Daboll's screen play designs? This kind of data convinces me even more that Allen is the least of the offenses problems. In fact we may be getting a complete misread on the guy due to our inability to execute simple screen passes. How many yards has Kyler Murray amassed throwing these types of passes? 75% of his total! Take another look at those numbers. The last thing we should be crying about are the lack of 300 yard games. That's the least of the passing games problems. Not being able to execute simple screen passes puts enormous pressure on a 2nd year, raw project QB. Throw in our less then explosive running game and this whole thread is barking up the wrong tree IMO. We won't see many 300 yard games until we surround Allen with the talent to actually achieve this milestone. I just hope we don't ruin a promising young QB in the process.

These are astonishing stats! Last night the combined screen play yardage by SF & AR in just ONE GAME blows our season production for screens out of the water. * 5/8 for 23 yards on RB screen passes! * 6/8 for 11 yards on screens to TE's/WR's! And you can bet almost all those incompletions were balls deliberately thrown into the ground to avoid a loss of yardage on the play. If this isn't an indictment of our collection of skill players & O-lineman I don't know what is. I suspected the production on screens was bad but this is biblical badness. Complete INCOMPETENCE on the part of our offense. Is there a fatal flaw in Daboll's screen play designs? This kind of data convinces me even more that Allen is the least of the offenses problems. In fact we may be getting a complete misread on the guy due to our lack of a sustained running game and our inability to execute simple screen passes. How many yards has Kyler Murray amassed throwing these types of passes? 75% of his total!

Good stuff. I wonder though how much Allen is impacted by a very conservative coaching style? Take his 2nd start against the Vikings last year. He had almost 200 yards passing early in the 2nd period with the Bills up 24 - 0. Then he threw a prefect deep pass that would have gone for at least 60 yards had Foster not dropped it. From that point on the Bills stopped throwing downfield. I get why they did this - rookie QB and unexpectedly up 27 - 0 on the road against a good team. But I suspect that MOST teams would have kept the pressure on until early in the 4th. Had the Bills been more aggressive in the 2nd half I suspect Allen would have had his first 300 yard game in the bag already. And we saw a similar thing this season against the Giants where Allen's 1st half performance seemed to indicate he was on his way to 300 yards.

I disagree. It contributed for sure but to me our defensive letdown was the main reason we lost that game. The Bills are built to win more 13 - 10 games then they are to win 34 - 31 games. No doubt failing to score after the fumbled punt was a big deal. But it's not like we got the ball in the red zone. it was at the Eagles 44 as I recall. And it's fair to say that the Eagles 1st TD right out of halftime was as big or even bigger momentum changer then Allen's fumble right before half. And the Eagles last 2 TD drives probably ran off almost 14 minutes in TOP costing the Bills at least 2 offensive possessions. That's why for the Redskins game the most important thing is for the Bills Defense to get back on track. We can't give Washington the kind of long time consuming drives that we yielded to BOTH the Eagles & Dolphins. And if Haskins is QB it's on the D to force TO's on the Redskins side of the field. Our offense needs all the help it can get and after 7 games it's only received the ball in the opponents red zone ONCE.

I remember this game. Interesting to note that the Bills had some pretty good skill players back when Edwards played. I think it's fair to say that Lee Evans & Fred Jackson are more explosive then anyone on the current Bill's O.

But that's a two way street. A couple of forced 3 & outs of the Eagles in the 3rd quarter would have gone a long towards keeping the D fresh.