CincyBillsFan

I disagree that our Defense is elite it definitely IS NOT. * Elite defenses do not let teams drive 82 yards for a game winning TD in the last 5 minutes of a game. * Elite defenses do not let teams come out of the locker room at half and bust off a 70 yard TD run on the 2nd play. And then later in that same game allow a team to drive 84 yards for a TD in the 4th quarter, using up over 8 minutes, to clinch a game. * An elite D forces turnovers at critical points in the game. Our D has forced ONLY ONE turnover in the opponents red zone. ONE. In fact by my count it has only forced TWO turnovers on the opponents side of the field (the ST got one against the Eagles). The Bills D is good and the offense is poor. But the offense has improved since last year where it ranked LAST or next to last in virtually every category. If we were honest with ourselves, 6 - 3 is a pretty decent record given the talent on this team right now.

I would throw out that with the arrival of McD there was a concerted effort to rebuild a struggling D and this came at the expense of the O. The idea behind hiring McD was that Buffalo wasn't making the playoffs because of a weak defense and that defenses win championships and so we hired a defensive guy. Let's take a look at the offensive talent we fielded in 2015/2016 compared to 2018/2019 (I label 2017 as a transition year). I would challenge anyone on this board to name one position group on offense where we are more talented today. The only one I can think of is at QB where I believe Allen is slightly better then Tyrod with additional room to improve and Barkley is a better back-up QB then we had back then. The RB group from 2015/16 was clearly superior to the group we have now. The offensive line in 2015/16 was clearly superior to the one we have now. TE's & WR's were better in 2015/16 then we have now. I won't even touch on coaching beyond noting that the current staff is defense focused and back then it was more offense focused. The OBVIOUS talent difference on offense now (2018/2019) versus then (2015/2016) is clear to see. This also explains to a great extent Allen's situation and why he isn't progressing even faster.

But then that was Sullivan's intention - no?

I'll bite because I have no idea who QB 1 is. Now looking at those numbers I would say they're pretty close but then if I only have those numbers to go by then trying to compare them and reach an informed conclusion is impossible without knowing the following: * Who were the offensive lineman for each QB. * Who were the WR's * Who were the TE's * Who were the RB's * Who were the coaches * Can you provide some details on the game results. For instance a check down QB is going to pad their stats very nicely if they play in a few more games in which they trail by multiple scores and are facing prevent defenses. So I'm curious who is QB #1?

Funny how that works. And if deep throws were high percentage plays that's all we would see on every down. Allen needs to start hitting these throws once & a while. My guess is that the problem is not all on Allen. His WR's don't exactly track the ball down when it's in the air and I still can't get the herky, jerky movements of McKenzie out of my mind as he try's to find the ball.

As others have noted it seems that through his first 20 games as a rookie, project QB, Allen is matching the numbers Tyrod put up as a VETERAN QB in his last 20 starts with Buffalo. This seems to demonstrates that moving from Tyrod to Allen was absolutely a great move by the Bills. And as others have suggested Sullivan is just trying to start crap here but is to stupid to realize that he has reinforced the decision to move on from Tyrod. Because we all can agree that Allen needs to improve his game. Maybe Sullivan, in his capacity as a "professional" sports writer, might want to comment on the offensive line that Tyrod had in his last 20 starts compared to the one that Allen has had - particularly the O line Allen had in 2018? Or maybe Sullivan can comment on the RB's (healthy McCoy), TE's and WR's that Tyrod had compared to Allen's over his first 20 starts. Seems that these are important aspects of the point that Sullivan is trying to make. So is Sullivan simply lazy or does he have an agenda to grind?

I don't agree with this at all. You just can't isolate it all on Allen. Each game will have it's own context. Dak Prescot played very poorly over a 3 game series earlier this season because he was missing a couple of key players on offense. Ditto for a couple of other QB's. Allen's performance over this part of the schedule will help the Bills determine whether he's the guy but the earliest the Bills can make an informed decision on this is after the end of next season and assuming they upgrade the offensive talent. IMO setting this kind of criteria is almost like setting Allen up for failure. You know there are some tough games over that stretch and you know that the Bills offense isn't exactly loaded with play makers. So yea lets declare him a bust if he struggles through this part of the schedule. Maybe we can draft that Minnesota QB in the 3rd round. He looked good against Penn State! If we aren't PATIENT with Allen then we're going to have to rely on being LUCKY AS HELL to solve our QB situation. I don't know about you but I suck at Powerball.

I think it's Trent Dilfer who repeatedly tells Cowherd on his show that QB's fail because of the awful situations they are thrown into. He makes a compelling argument that it's not so much where you draft a QB as the quality of the organization the QB finds themselves in. I think Dilfer makes a compelling argument here and it explains the relatively high failure rate of QB's drafted in the NFL. As for Allen I believe that he's walked into a mixed situation where some aspects of the Bill's organization are excellent while others are not so good for a young QB. I do think McD's "culture" is a positive thing for a young QB and I do think that the Bills new ownership is elevating the organization and I do think Beane will be a good GM. I think the jury is still out on Daboll like it is still out on Allen. But let's not kid ourselves and admit that the Bills screwed up handling Allen in his rookie year. What the Bills did in the 2018 off season, training camp and pre-season was almost a how to guide on the best ways to screw up a young QB. From not giving the kid enough snaps to not having a vet QB on hand as a mentor to throwing him to the wolves in the 2nd game of the season, Allen wasn't exactly coddled as a rookie QB. Then you had offensive talent so bad that they cut 2/3 of their starting WR's a third of the way into the season. Now to their credit the Bills organization adapted to having a rookie QB with some astute moves during Allen's injury such as bringing in Anderson & Barkley and adding SPEED to the offense. They continued to move towards creating a better environment for their young QB this off season by upgrading the O-line & WR core. But lets not kid ourselves all they accomplished this off season was to take those groups from terrible to at best average. And the Bills still lack mightily at RB & TE. Bottom line is that we must be patient with BOTH Allen & Daboll. There just hasn't been enough time or enough talent on offense to make any sort of definitive decision on either guy. And to add QB's at this time simply introduces unneeded distractions. I've seen folks suggest we draft a QB in the 3rd round. That's the last thing we should do. In the 3rd round we should be taking a WR or RB. Adding a QB that we can all call for if Allen flounders might make us feel better as fans. Sort of like all those calls for Gary Marangi. But it won't help the Bills become a regular playoff team.

The Browns are not a bad defense against the pass though. They have a stud pass rusher and one shut down corner and another decent corner. Our TE's & RB's present almost no threat as pass receivers and our inability to execute simple screen passes really limits this offense. We do not field a single PROVEN game breaker on offense. No D-coordinator is losing sleep preparing for this offense once they set things up to keep Allen from running for a 100 yards. BTW, I'm for sticking with Daboll as continuity is important in developing a young QB. Just like Allen is allowed to have off days in his 2nd year so is Daboll who is working with a talent deficient offense. It's hard to design & execute effective offensive game plans when you don't have a single explosive skill player and are relying on a 2nd year project QB. I think that as frustrating as it is for us, the operative word here is PATIENCE for both Allen & Daboll.

You mean like San Diego did with Brees? I would say the timeline is more like 2 - 4 years depending on the circumstances of each QB's situation. And do you really want to count last year where the Bills had an historically bad offense? Allen, a freaking PROJECT rookie QB was the only real offensive threat on the field last season. The collection of "skill players" the Bills fielded on offense in 2018 was laughable in their ineptitude. The Bills CUT 2/3 of their STARTING WR's a third of the way into the season! Accuse me of seeing Allen through rose colored glasses all you want folks but what kind of a read can you get on a QB under those circumstances. That Allen made any progress at all last year is amazing.

I think these are astute observations. I'm not sure it's entirely by design but the reality is this is exactly what the Bills are doing with Allen. The Buffalo coaches had to know that their TE & RB situations were problematic going into the season and that the WR's were at best only going to be adequate assuming that BOTH Brown & Beasley worked out (which they have IMO). And this has the potential of working in the Bill's favor by creating a more well rounded & resilient QB. My sense is that in the interview process one of the things they liked about Allen was his mental toughness. And that has only been reinforced by his time in Buffalo. So they may think that the risk of messing Allen up is low because of his nature. But I'm with you that this is a concern. Name me a young QB asked to direct an offense with as weak a running game as the Bills have. Or who can't rely on throwing screen passes because the Bills don't have the personnel to execute them. Allen rarely does check downs on 3rd & long and he's expected to convert those plays. For all practical purposes the Bills have thrown Allen to the wolves. I'm fine with a sink or swim approach here IF the Bills are reasonably confident Allen can hold up mentally & physically. So far he shows every sign of being able to. His frustration stems from his own play and the teams inability to win every game. This is an element of his personality that the Bills were attracted to. And as long as this is the case the experience he's getting this year is a positive. But starting at the end of this season and continuing through next years draft the Bill's must focus like a laser on the offensive side of the ball. If it means sacrificing a bit on the defensive side so be it. I'm looking at a minimum of TWO BIG FA signings for the offense and the top 2 draft picks going to the O as well.

I suspect the Bills could win games with Barkley at QB if they had a Leonard Fournette or Christian McCaffrey in the backfield. The more I think about it the more alarming the Bill's shortcomings at the offensive skill positions becomes. This is a problem for two reasons: 1) It limits our offense which in turn costs us winnable games. 2) Makes it much more difficult to accurately evaluate our young QB. The most urgent need on offense at this stage in the Bill's rebuild is NOT another QB. Barkley is a fine back-up option. Our most urgent need is to upgrade our offensive personnel which starts at Tackle, TE, WR & RB.

I'm not tied to Allen anymore then I was tied to Daryl Lamonica back in the 1960's! I was just a kid back then but I agreed with my uncle over my dad that Lamonica was the guy and that Kemp was past his prime. I can still remember the heated arguments between my dad and uncle on this topic. When I watch Allen play today I'm reminded of Lamonica. I just think he is the right guy for Buffalo. So I look for the positive in his play and defend him here on 2BD against what I think is unfair criticism. I'm "tied" to Allen only to the extent that if he doesn't work out the Bills are in QB purgatory for another few years. As a Bills fan you have to want Allen to succeed. It's the shortest path to this franchise becoming relevant again and seriously contending for a Super Bowl win. You seem to equate defending Allen against unfair and at times ignorant criticisms to somehow being "tied to him". I say hogwash to that. I defend Allen on here because I truly believe, based on his performance to date, that he is the guy. When I no longer believe that I'll be as ready as you to switch to our next best option.

Interesting question. I won't deny I'm rooting for Allen to succeed with the Bills. But since I've been an avid Bills fan for DECADES before Allen was even born I have to go with being a Bills fan first. Now I have a serious question for you. What makes you think that being a Bills fan AND an Allen fan at this point in time isn't one and the same thing? If Allen doesn't pan out the Bills are screwed, at least for the next couple of years. As far as claiming that what we've seen isn't good enough, well that's your opinion. And IMO that line of thinking is NOT backed up by the facts. The first FACT being that the Bills are 6 - 3 with Allen at QB. So yes they are winning with Allen. You seem to be taking a fantasy football approach to the Bills. I get that in FF you can add & subtract QB's like picking a shirt in the morning. If the QB you picked isn't working out, you can just plug in a new one. But that's not how it works in the NFL. So another serious question: what do you want to do: * Complain about Allen not being Mahomes or Russel Wilson? Tell us how much Allen sucks and what he does wrong? How does that help the Bills win games? * Or do you want to bench Allen and start Barkley? Give Barkley a couple of games and if the O doesn't produce throw Allen back in there. Is that what you want to do? If it works in FF it should work in the real NFL. Sorry, the Bills have been there and done that before and it hasn't worked. * Or are you suggesting that we go get Teddy Bridgewater or Andy Dalton in the off season and sink 25 million into them? Of course do that and you can say goodby to signing a stud Tackle or pass rusher. But hey all we need to win is a better QB. And we'll still have Allen on the bench for two more years so if our FA QB doesn't pan out we can throw Allen back out there and maybe this time he'll get it? * Or are you suggesting that we draft a QB next year in the 2nd or 3rd round? Maybe we can get lucky and pick the next Drew Brees or Arron Rogers! Of course we would have to give Allen and the rookie equal snaps in pre-season but that shouldn't mess things up. Right? It seems to me that if you want the Bills to win games you have to root for Allen to become a top notch QB. Rooting for Allen is pretty much the same as rooting for the Bills.

One thing that drives me crazy about threads like this are the posters who throw out Lamar Jackson as if he would make any difference in Buffalo. To me it's obvious that had we traded down and taken Jackson it would be a complete cluster frack trying to fit him into a conventional NFL offense. There is ZERO evidence that Buffalo would have done what Baltimore did and redesigned their entire O around a unique QB talent like Jackson. It's pure fantasy to think they would have. It's also a fantasy to think that Jackson could thrive in a conventional offense. Baltimore deserves all the praise in the world for thinking out of the box and taking the risk they did. It's even more impressive in light of the fact that the Ravens were a playoff caliber team when they took this risk. And it has worked. Now the question going forward for Baltimore is whether they can sustain this offense. Can they develop a back-up QB situation that could keep the boat afloat should Jackson get hurt? It's not like a conventional O where your back-up can be any one of dozens of QB's. Jackson is unique and WHEN, not IF, the Ravens face a stretch with Jackson out of the lineup what's the plan? In the case of Buffalo and Allen the question going forward is whether or not Allen is the guy. Allen is a major project and IMO the risk the Bills took in picking Allen was almost as big as the risk the Ravens took with Jackson. And like Baltimore, the Bill's are going to be rewarded for taking this risk. Allen is on the right trajectory and is getting better. We need to stop obsessing over a play here or there and look at the big picture in judging our QB. If you break Allen's "career" into logical blocks: 1) pre-injury 2018; 2) post injury 2018; 3) The first 4 games of 2019; & the 4) The last 5 games of 2019 you can clearly see the impressive improvement in his game. By the end of next year, or sooner, we'll be as happy with Allen as Ravens fans are with Jackson.

Man I'm glad other people are seeing this to. I thought either I was crazy or looking at Allen's throws through fogged up rose colored glasses. But you're 100% right here. On some (yes Allen misses other deep throws) of those deep throws the WR's don't seem to be running the pattern like other NFL wide outs. Think last week with Foster against the Redskins.

I agree 100%! That was a good throw if McKenzie finishes the route. What NFL receiver keeps looking side to side on a pass like that? Talk about having "eyes roaming all over the place". Run the damn route and the ball drops right into his hand. You know where I've seen WR's routinely do that when running a deep route? My backyard on Thanksgiving. That's how bad of a look that was. Allen HAS struggled with the deep ball but I suspect it's not all on Allen.

If we bring in a Minshew like QB can we also bring in a Leonard Fourenett like RB? You see a dominating RB has something to do with the success of a Minshew type QB. As an aside, did you actually watch Minshew his last couple of games? If Allen had a game as bad as Minshew had in London this season 2BD would be in meltdown mode! I live in Cincinnati and have seen Dalton up close. If you want to guarantee 5 more years of EXTREME mediocrity do what you suggest here. And we DON'T have the cap room to spend $25,000,000 on Dalton if we also want a new Tackle and a stud Pass Rusher and either a game breaking WR or RB.

It's more subtle then that. I suspect they've emphasized what they don't want to see happen and Allen has internalized it a bit to much. Like everything there has to be a happy middle where both can happen in a game. The reality is we are way over analyzing a single play. I'm as guilty as the next poster but here we are spending PAGES of posts talking about a flare pass to the flat that gained 6 yards towards the end of the game. This is all just a part of Allen and the offenses learning curve. Allen IS improving AND we're smack dab in the middle of rebuilding our offense. Things will be choppy for the rest of the season and it may cost us a one & out playoff appearance this year but the Bill's brain trust is moving towards bigger, better and more sustainable success in the future.

To be fair this may just be a recognition by the Bill's coaching staff that they don't have the receivers that can win those 50/50 balls. In fact they might tell you that there are NO 50/50 balls with our receiving group and that the best we can hope for are 20/80 balls and those are not worth throwing.

I had the exact same thoughts on both plays.

That's the problem with fans in general and Bill's fans in particular. I get it because we all have some version of football related PTSS after watching the Bills lose 4 straight Super Bowls and then not make the playoffs for 20 straight years. Some of us express it with to much optimism while others descend into to much negativism. But watching last nights game and seeing all the mistakes Jimmy G made and even mistakes made by the likely MVP Russel Wilson and we're just to critical of Allen and we are to obsessive over each & every play the guy makes or doesn't make.

It was the smart throw. It's not like the choice was between gaining 6 yards and 20 yards. It was between 6 yards and 10 yards. In that case you make the throw that gets you out of bounds to stop the clock. You saw the same thing with Wilson last night. He tries to get into a lot of 3rd & 4's because they're easier to convert. In fact I think it's safe to say that on that play most NFL QB's would have chosen to throw to the RB on the sideline.

How do you know it was better? Even if it gets the first down there's no way Beasley gets out of bounds and we're only talking about an extra 5 yards here. The kick that I saw wouldn't have been good from 48 yards either. IMO the BEST decision was to throw the ball ALONG the sidelines to a RB that is your best threat in space. The failure to get out of bounds is what made that a bad play IMO.

I'll bite: I would put all ten coins on Allen. We really have no choice do we? Doing anything other then that AT THIS POINT is the sign of a dysfunctional organization and a guarantee that the Bills will remain on the outside looking in for the next decade at playoff time. And for the record Allen has shown more then enough to justify a continued investment. And in today's NFL and when dealing with a QB that means you have to be ALL IN.