CincyBillsFan

We won't know your last question for another 2 - 3 years. It takes 4 to 5 years in total before you can really be sure if you have a franchise QB. But everything I've seen to date is trending in the right direction. But I do disagree to a point with your notion that Allen is only a game manager and is not being asked to win games only to not lose them. As you mention in your post, Allen has led 5 game winning drives which to me means that they really do ask him, in a limited way, to win some games for them.

How many times must those of us who see real improvement and flashes of elite potential in Allen have to say HE STILL HAS A LOT OF AREAS HE NEEDS TO IMPROVE IN before you sour pusses quit setting up & knocking down this straw man? I can't think of a single 2BD post claiming that Allen is setting the world on fire. Where do you get this stuff?

Well if our defense sucked Allen might have a whole bunch of 300 yard games as he threw against prevent defenses every week! I guess that would make some of you happy now wouldn't it?

I wouldn't say we're making excuses for Allen as much as we're reacting to unfair and ignorant criticism of the guy. Most of us would agree with your description of where Allen is as he approaches the end of his 2nd season. We agree that there is much he needs to improve in his game but the future looks bright. But when someone claims Allen is a "bottom tier QB" there's going to be push back. Because claiming Allen is "bottom tier" is dumber then saying he's elite.

Rubbish. It depends on the stats you use. If you focus on QB rating or yards or % completions he's below average. But if you look at TOTAL TD's (rushing & passing) he's in the TOP 10. Even better he has a very good ratio of TD's/TO's (27/13) at over 2. If you look at 4th quarter ratings he's #3 and Buffalo is designed to win games in the 4th quarter. That's a stated goal of coach McD. If you look at Allen's Red Zone rankings he's top 10. For a team with an elite D that's a much more important stat then say passing yardage by the QB. We all agree that Allen has much to improve in his game. Anyone with a lick of sense also would agree that he gets 4 - 5 years to fully reach his potential. And only someone with a weak understanding of football would label Allen as a bottom tier NFL QB. He's middle of the pack with a solid upward trajectory.

I can't completely separate Collinsworth from PFF. PFF has an ax to grind and Collinsworth as a PFF investor shares that same ax. And given that this was the first time the Bills had been on Sunday Night football in a LONG time it was bush league by Collinsworth to bash Allen as much as he did. Sure, some criticism was warranted last night. But Collinsworth wouldn't let it drop and half his critique had more to do with tired old stereotypes that Allen wasn't even guilty of last night. It was unrelenting and bordered on the obsessive. I also don't recall a whole lot of praise from Collinsworth for the things Allen did well. You mention fumbles but Allen didn't fumble last night. Singleterry did - TWICE yet Collinsworth glossed right over it so he could take another shot at Allen's footwork. And when you look at lost fumbles, there are plenty of QB's who have as many or more then Allen. Again, half of what Collinsworth spouted last night was a false narrative that either never was true or hadn't been true for the last 10 games. As for missing key passes, which ones would that be? Sure he badly missed Beasley in the flat on 2nd & 8 but it was hardly a key pass. Today I listened to the Cowherd show. Now NO ONE can accuse Cowherd of being an Allen apologist. In fact he was blisteringly critical of Allen after the Bills drafted him. Today he kept including Allen by name when talking about athletic QB's who produce in the clutch being the future of the NFL. IMO a more reasonable take by Collinsworth last night would have been along the lines of Allen being inconsistent but having all the tools to be elite.

As a Chiefs fan you should be the last to talk about catching this type of pass. Over the last 2 seasons I have seen KC receivers make catches on balls that looked a lot like Allen's high throw to Beasley. Kelsey alone seems to make 1 or 2 catches of "poorly" thrown balls every game. In reality though those passes are not "poorly" thrown because in the NFL the first job is to get the ball to where a receiver can catch it.

My guess is that this is the classic dilemma of play callers. They overthink things by believing that the opponent EXPECTS us to feature Allen in the red zone so let's cross them up by taking it out of his hands! As an aside, does anyone remember that first year with Bledsoe when we started out 2 - 0 and we thought we were Super Bowl bound and we went down to Miami and tried that same play (stretch run that the RB pulls up and throws the ball) with the RB trying to throw a pass in the red zone. I think it got intercepted and we lost the game and finished the season 8 - 8.

Great comment. There is a double standard in assessing Allen and it stinks. The good news is that Allen is sharpening his saw playing these kinds of games. Steel is being tempered here and will pay huge dividends going forward.

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO, that was a pretty routine play by NFL standards. Rather then looking at Allen's performance through rose colored glasses I like to think of it as watching the game with the understanding that we were on the road against an elite defense in a playoff level game. And in this game our 2nd year, raw QB prospect made a lot more clutch plays then he made mistakes.

I think because Allen is raw and the Bills use him in a way that is almost as unconventional as the way the Ravens use Jackson. McD & Bean have a vision for how this team would look and Allen is their ideal QB. I'm beginning to wonder if the powers that be in Buffalo were not only interested in Allen's physical attributes but liked his attitude just as much. By "attitude" I mean his combination of cockiness and selflessness on the football field. Allen will NEVER regret not throwing for 400 yards and 4 TD's as long as the team wins. I don't think this guy gives a hoot about the stats. He has the perfect ego for a McD coached team.

Also notice how he looks off the safety. He starts by staring down the left side where he has trips and then turns his head and fires that very accurate TD pass. Excellent anticipation by Allen & route by Kroft.

Who says 139 yards is awful when you win the game and the QB scores both TD's? Would you rather have Allen throw for 400 yards and we lose the game. There's another thread that talks about the value of combining TD runs and passes as the key metric for assessing a QB. Yards are overrated. Using the following metric Allen had a solid game tonight and has had a good season so far: Combine total TD's (passing & rushing) and compare that value to the total turnovers (fumbles lost & interceptions) and you get: * for tonight's game 2/1 * for the season 27/13 and on pace for 31/15 after 16 games Solid and getting better. Next year look for 40/10.

But how valuable are these stats? They don't address situational football IMO. I'm becoming more and more convinced that all these different QB metrics are somewhat meaningless. The metrics I think are important are: * Adding passing & rushing TD's together and then comparing that number to the sum of the interceptions & fumbles LOST by the QB. With that metric Allen was 2 - 1 tonight and is 27 - 13 for the season. That is very good. And next year Allen's numbers here will be even better. * Clutch play. This is a subjective metric that includes game winning drives and come from behind wins and performance in the 4th quarter & red zone. I have no idea how you would quantitate this with a numerical value but Allen is above average in all these things. Tonight he led a very critical, game winning TD drive. * Won/lost record. Ultimately this is how QB's should be judged. It's a harsh measure becasue they don't play ST's or defense. In only his 2nd year our project QB is improving and in some areas is quite good. Considering he's not surrounded by elite play makers Allen is making excellent progress. Remembering how posters responded to the Bills drafting Allen less then 2 years ago his development as our starting QB has to have exceeded expectations. The continued nit picking in the face of this teams unprecedented success this season is depressing.

I disagree 100% * First off that was a brilliant back shoulder throw by Allen. Mahomes & Rogers hit that pass all the time. You do realize that the Steelers DB was called for PI on that play right? That's what a great back shoulder throw does - catch it for a big gain or draw a PI. * Brown didn't really prevent a pick on that throw. That was the moron Collingsworth trying to claim that the throw was almost intercepted. Watch a replay and the DB would have had to make a spectacular play to INT that ball. It was a good 50/50 ball by Allen and Brown did a nice job fighting for it and preventing any chance for an INT. Pretty routine play by an NFL WR. That POS Collinsworth was unbelievably negative about Allen. That "almost interception" was a perfect example of it.

The pick wasn't all on Allen. I would say it was 75% on Beasley and 25% on Allen. Was the ball thrown high? Yes. But so what. That pass is caught most of the time in the NFL. I like Beasley and think he's been a great addition to the Bills but size matters and in some situations we just have to live with the disadvantage that his size brings.

A- When it mattered most, Allen came through big. With this offense and considering where Allen is in his development the stats mean nothing. Two drives earned him the A-. 1) After the bad punt we faced 3rd & 20 and Allen gained 12 yards on a nice run. Then on 4th & 8 he had a perfect throw to Brown for the 1st down. That kept the drive alive and we got a TD. 2) After tying the game Allen had 2 fantastic throws midway through the 4th quarter to take the Bills 70 yards for the winning TD. Playing on the road against an elite D is not going to boost your stats. What matters is what happens at key moments in the game. And again, Allen came through. He now has 27 total TD's and 13 total TO's. That's really good. And those are the numbers that matter. Yardage, not so much.

I remember the last game of a season about 15 - 20 years ago where all we needed to do was win at HOME against Pittsburgh and we were in the playoffs. It was early in the first decade of our two decades of decedent football and the Steelers beat us. That's when I swore I wouldn't ever care about style points again. The ONLY thing that mattered was to win. These types of late season games are TOUGH and coming out of 3 Rivers Stadium tonight with a win is HUGE.

See I don't see it that way. I don't care about style points. When you're in the playoff hunt in December every game against other teams in the playoff hunt are dog fights. Did the offense play well from start to finish? No. But that was because they were on the road playing one of the best defenses in the NFL. But when they needed to play well they did. That last TD drive was huge. And Allen also came through when the game was on the line. Last season this was one of if not the worst offenses in the NFL. After a complete remake and the injection of 3 rookies into the starting lineup the offense is now middle of the pack. That's real improvement. There are some things they do real well and there are other things that need work. But the direction is up and that's all we can ask for.

No way will I let these depressed sad sacks ruin my fun tonight. Hell I'm getting happier by the minute as it sinks in that we are in the playoffs! And think about this we are 2 - 1 in the tough part of our schedule and we could be 3 - 0. We are a good football team.

The offense is NOT a mess. Check out Cincinnati or the Redskins to see bad offenses. The Bills offense is a work in progress. It's red zone production is quite good; they've had numerous LONG and CLUTCH TD drives this season. They do lack consistency but that will be corrected with time. The Bills played an elite defense tonight on the road and the offense played okay and well enough to WIN. And when all is said & done that's all that matters.

That's a fair assessment and it is frustrating. Allen can be exasperating at times. But the fact he bounces back and makes the throws he did on that last drive give me confidence that things are going to work out. In this game I thought the O came alive when it was challenged by the circumstances of the game. The first time was after Pitt went up 10 - 7 we had a great drive going until the Singleterry fumble. I'm confident that we score 3 or 7 on that drive. Then the last drive to put us up 17 - 10 was fantastic and totally unexpected. That's two good drives when we needed the offense to be productive. A couple years from now when Allen is a top 3 QB in the NFL we're going to wax nostalgic about when he was a "baby" and inconsistent!

I would say rather then "widely inconsistent" we have an incomplete offense. Given how young we are and the extreme turnover from last season it's a work in progress. But a couple of times this year the Offense has bailed us out and I would include tonight. That last drive won us the game. This offense will only get better.

I believe it's been 20 years!

You should probably stick with High School football then. That's where you have teams go undefeated and beat all their opponents by 40 points per game. This is the NFL and tonight the Bills had a BIG BOY NFL win. There was NOTHING mediocre about it Mr. Sad Sack.