CincyBillsFan

Fair points. My response: * Some teams on the rise do follow your path (good - poor - good) but many don't. For all we know this year was the slump year. Each team & set of circumstances is different. * I don't follow the Bears like I follow the Bills so I can't say why they regressed this year. But it seemed odd that folks were putting it all on Turbisky. Then I watch the KC/Bears game the other day and find out that the Bears lost all 3 of their TE's from the previous season. No wonder their QB has struggled. I also wasn't overwhelmed by the Bears D in the games I saw this year. Seems to me that this may be a better explanation of the slide then Turbisky sucks. * You may be right about Allen having plateaued. But that's not what I'm seeing. Allen's history at QB is different then most other NFL players and he truly is a project. His development will also be different. So far he seems ahead of schedule to me. * Looking at Allen's first 16 games as a starter which would include 11 games from last season & the first 5 games from this season and comparing them to his last 10 games he's shown significant improvement. There is ZERO evidence that he's anywhere near a plateau. * Since the BIlls are going on the road for their playoff game they could very well lose it. IMO the Bill's are underdogs to whoever they play in the playoffs.

I believe the only 1st down TD run at the goal line by Allen was against the Steelers. I do recall handing off to a RB 3 straight times against NE in game 1 only to get stuffed. Allen then scored on a 4th down sneak. I don't know about you but when we end up inside the 5 yard line I figure Allen is our best bet to score. Your point is good but IMO you're coming to the wrong conclusion. It seems to me that our RB's aren't very good close to the end zone. We don't have big RB's and Singleterry is not a thumper between the tackles. Gore is a savvy runner and if there's a hole he'll find it but he's past the point in his career where he creates the hole. I could also throw out that I don't hear folks questioning all those Lamer Jackson TD runs near the goal line. Nor do I hear folks question all those short Jackson TD passes near the goal line in spite of having a stud a RB#1 and a very good RB#2? Sure Allen's ridiculously high % of TD's scored in the Bills offense is an artifact of where the offense is today. But that shows me that Allen elevates this offense and that we need more pieces around him before the Bills can be more productive on offense.

This is why I don't understand those that seem to be rooting against Allen. At least it looks to me like that's what they're doing. This is the dilemma facing every team with a young, potential franchise QB. They have to make a bet early in their career whether they're the guy of not and then build an offense around them. And I agree that the Bill's brain trust, which has seen Allen up close a lot more then we have, believe he is the guy. And I also think that based on what I've seen he's the guy. But the risk is that if he isn't the Bills are SCREWED big time. As you note the last thing anybody wants to do is start over at QB. That's why I struggle to wrap my head around some of the posters who are so damn negative. They seem almost gleeful when Allen struggles. Don't they understand what a disaster it would be if Allen stopped improving?

I like Joe B's 22 reviews even if I don't always agree with them. It's nice having a different set of eyes watching the game and I don't detect an agenda in what the guy writes. I do think in this case the use of the word "regressed" to describe Allen's play against NE is wrong. As others have pointed out Allen significantly improved his game versus the earlier NE game. So by definition he didn't regress. A 103 QB rating further supports the idea that there was NO regression by Allen on Sunday. What we did see though were missed opportunities by Allen & the Bills on offense. This is an area where Allen needs to improve. But on the road against an elite D in a game the Pats needed a lot more then we did, Allen was solid. As for Edmunds and the D let's not forget that the context of the game. This NE team reminds me of those Bills teams in the immediate aftermath of the Super Bowl era. You could tell they were sliding but they could still circle the wagons and bite your face off. NE had been hearing for weeks how the O was the weak link and that Brady was over the hill and the Pats had no skill players. This triggers a pride reaction and that's part of what we saw Sunday. A Bill's D coming off of several intense defensive efforts played flat against an inspired NE offense. No one should be surprised they rolled the Bills D and made young players like Edmunds look bad.

I'm pretty close to agreeing with you that Allen is the guy. Let's just say if he fails to continue improving over the next couple of years I'll be very surprised. Bottom line is I think he's the guy but he still has to demonstrate it over the next 2 years.

IMO lies by omission are the worst kinds of lies and a lot of Allen critics seem to leave a lot out when describing Allen's QB play. To focus ONLY on the bad throws or missed reads is a form of lying plain & simple. And these folks wonder why we respond to the lies like we do. I'll say it ONE MORE time: Allen must continue to improve his game; we won't know for another couple of years if he's our franchise guy; Allen has made great progress and some of his plays are amazing but other aspects of his game need improvement; all indications are that he's going to develop into a very good and possibly elite QB. - I think this speaks for most of us Allen "apologists".

I'm not saying Allen's rushing makes him an accurate passer. What I am saying is that when judging Allen as a QB you must include rushing yards, rushing 1st downs & rushing TD's in the assessment. For example in recent games we've seen Allen convert two 4th & 1 plays that most QB's could not have done. On both those drives we scored TD's following those conversions. That's a BIG deal in a game. Or put another way guys like Jackson & Allen can be highly productive QB's completing between 55 - 60% of their passes if they're making plays with their legs. There is an evolution occurring in NFL quarterbacking right before our eyes. It's becoming more like the college game where a QB's running game adds a lot to the overall production out of the QB position.

Fair point about what constitutes an easy throw as being subjective but I define an "easy" throw as one that's less then 15 yards; where the QB is under NO pressure and the guy is WIDE open. The 2 throws to Knox IMO were makeable throws which is different than easy. In the 2nd sentence above when you say throwing a pick wouldn't be the end of the world are you talking about the 1st or 2nd throw to Knox? A pick on the throw to Knox in the end zone on SECOND DOWN would have been the end of the game. So yea, it's better he overthrow and miss the receiver then under-throw a pick.

Which is a good thing no? But I disagree with your take here. I see him throwing into tight windows a lot. In fact what I see is that Allen hasn't made fewer of these throws as the season progressed. Let's look at Allen's INT's: * 3 of them came on deep throws against NE. He corrected this by making sure he overthrew almost every deep throw after that. * 1 of the INT's was a classic Allen hero ball throw against Cincinnati. He stopped playing hero ball which has cut his INT's down. * 1 of his INT's was off a tipped pass against the Jets. Bad luck. * 2 of his INT's were off tipped balls. One off the hands and the other off the knees of Beasley. * 1 of his INT's was a bad read and or the ball got away from him against Denver. * The only INT that came off Allen trying to fit the ball into a tight window was against TN. And IMO that INT was on the receivers running sloppy routes. Allen has cut down his INT's because he committed to overthrowing his receivers on deep balls and he stopped playing hero ball.

Seems like you're describing Tyrod here. I don't know what games you've been watching but several times per game I usually lose my breath at some of the throws Allen makes when he fits the ball between 3 defenders for a completion. I don't see him shying away from throwing into very tight windows. he just happens to get them there most of the time.

Either Jackson is a difference maker in what defines QB production or he isn't. A QB's rushing output - yards/TD's/1st downs - must be added to the passing stats when measuring overall production. At the same time lost fumbles should be included with INT's. By this measure Allen is a top 10 QB with 29 total TD's and only 13 total TO's. IMO this IS the key QB metric. Oh and Allen's 29 TD's puts him at 2nd place in Bills history for total TD's in a season - behind only Jim Kelly's 34 TD's in 1991.

And the other point he was making was that Allen did it against some pretty good defenses. This is a very encouraging stat.

Some 2BD posters noted that Allen played a poor first half until the last 2 minutes when he led the Bills on a game tying TD. A lot of us pointed out that late in the season against good D's QB's often struggle for a half or more. Well tonight we have a nice example of this with 2 of the best QB's in the NFL: Rogers = 18/30 for 156 yards; 0 TD's & 1 INT; QB rating of 60 Cousins = 4/12 for 40 yards; 1 TD & 0 INT; QB rating of 71. And Cousins can thank his D for the TD or his rating would be a 30! The Vikings have only gained TWO 1st downs the entire half. But, but, but only Allen is inaccurate!

This can be said of EVERY NFL QB. Yesterday for example the 2019 MVP, Lamar Jackson, disappeared for the first quarter and most of the 2nd quarter. He had less then 20 yards passing and had hit on only 25% of his passes. He also lost a fumble. His team was down 6 - 0 and the Ravens had not even sniffed the red zone. Then Jackson caught fire late in the 2nd period. Sound familiar?

And for the record Allen's 29 TD's through 15 games this season puts him behind only Jim Kelly's 34 TD's as the record for most TD's by a Bills player in a single season. That's not bad at all. In fact it's pretty spectacular if you ask me and shows excellent PRODUCTION from the QB position. Oh and over that same period Allen only has 13 TO's (INT's & Lost Fumbles). Allen has already outplayed pretty much everyone who has played QB for the Bills over the last 20 years. In his 2nd season and as a guy described as a PROJECT.

This misrepresents the situation and suggests that Allen routinely misses the easy throws. He doesn't. In fact this year he's been making almost all of the "easy throws". Yes, he does miss an easy throw once & a while. But to suggest it's a problem at this point is just not correct. And please I hope you're not calling the two times he missed Knox as "easy throws". Particularly the 2nd one in the end zone which was the type of play that looks open but can end in an INT if the pass isn't perfectly thrown. Sure, they were make-able throws but NOT easy throws. As for Allen being 13/26 indicating that he's missing "easy throws" I say BS. He had to throw at least 3 balls away due to the pass rush; he had to throw a ball at the RB's feet on a screen because the Pats had blown it up; and he threw a desperation hail Mary pass on the last play of the game. That means Allen was 13/21 or hitting on 62% in his other passes. And I didn't include a couple of deep shots and a dropped pass.

I'll give you Mahomes but how do you know this for Watson & Jackson? Earlier in the day on Sunday I watched Watson play a mediocre game that was critical to the Texans playoff chances. He missed several big throws and ended the day with no TD's and an INT. Against a Tampa pass defense that one would hardly call elite. As for Jackson, based on watching his game this year I doubt he hits on either of those throws as they were throws from the pocket in which the defense KNEW a pass play was on tap. Now I will give you that Jackson and the Ravens O scores from the 8 yard line because of the greater number of weapons they could bring to bear at that point. But I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Jackson hits either of those throws.

I'm with others in wanting the Bills to sit anyone on the injury report AND play their starters for 1 - 2 quarters. I get there's a risk of injury but I would worry about Allen being rusty in the first half of the playoff game if he got no snaps this Sunday. I think treating this like the 2nd preseason game seems the way to go.

And this is why I would take Joe Burrow over Chase Young in the upcoming draft. The relative impact of a QB versus a pass rushing specialist is hugely in favor of the QB. And unlike Bruce Smith, who played the run very well, Mack is a bit of a one trick pony. We're you the guy who threw that out? I just remember seeing it and saying to myself come on man, maybe he had 5 bad throws but 10, no way.

I think we're actually pretty close on this topic. And yes Mahomee has had the better season. As for crazy takes on 2BD it comes with the territory and IMO Allen is the target of most of the insanity thrown out around here. I mean just today we learned that: * Allen should be moved to TE * The Bills will NEVER win a championship with Allen at QB * Allen sucks * Allen missed on 10 throws against the Pats * Allen is regressing

Who the hell is saying this? What I've seen posted is that Allen isn't that far behind Watson. Which I think is true. But then again I think Allen is emerging into being a very good QB and Watson is already a very good QB. Most of the stuff on Jackson on 2BD is positive. At the same time it's not knocking Jackson to say that if he were dropped into the Bills offense he would struggle and not be as effective as Allen. That doesn't mean Allen is better then Jackson it simply acknowledges that the 2 play in very different systems and that Jackson benefits from playing in a system designed for him. It's a testament to Jackson's skills and the brilliance of the ravens coaching staff that they've taken the NFL by storm. As for Mahomes, the most common point made on 2BD is that he has a great offensive mind coaching him and he's surrounded with fantastic skill players. I can't think of to many folks who claim Allen is better though. Mahomes is probably the best QB in the NFL. Allen isn't there yet. But it's okay to speculate on how the two might fare if they switched offenses to play in.

I think you're talking to me so I'll reply. My point wasn't to say that Allen is equal to Mahomes he isn't and he has a long way to go to get there. My point was to show that Allen is closing the gap. And for the record what I posted wasn't cherry picking the stats. It was comparing 2 games played only 2 weeks apart that featured a common opponent with an elite D in their house. I thought it was interesting that in this situation Allen played about as well as Mahomes did. I found that encouraging. My post was aimed at those who continue to use Mahomes great play as a way to take a shot at Allen. And lets be real Mahomes gets a lot of love on 2BD and a lot of attention. For how many years did we have to see repeated posts reminding us that we passed on drafting Mahomes?

And this is why the # of drops attributed to the Bills receivers is artificially low. Bills receivers seem to make fewer tough catches then their counterparts around the league. And while that low pass to Knox wasn't a drop it's a pass that is caught by a lot of NFL skill players.

Brown & Beasley are very good but we need a big bodied WR on the field to compliment Beas & Smoke. It deprives the Bills of flexibility in the passing game.

I would agree that Mahomes is better then Allen - right now. But the difference in skill players can not be disputed - at least by a rational person. I would also argue that the Bills got the Pats A+ game and the Chiefs got their B game. My point was that when both QB's played NE on the road, only a couple of weeks apart and against one of the top 3 D's in the NFL and they both played equally well.