VW82

I think the knock on Manning underperforming in big playoff games is fair. Manning's record as the higher seed is very misleading though. Go back and show me which of those games he had the better team. Outside of maybe one or two of the Denver losses I promise you you're not going to find many. The reason he was the top seed is because he was so much better than every other QB during his prime that he drastically improved the win totals of those Colts teams. Then when they got to the playoffs and faced very good defenses from the Steelers, Pats, Chargers, Jets, etc., he was just ok and it wasn't enough to overcome the fact that their team wasn't as good (outside of him). I always thought Dungy was so overrated. Colts were consistently outcoached in the playoffs. The early Pats losses will always be fishy. They seemed to know exactly what the Colts were doing in those games, and they're on record sneaking into walk through practices and taping teams during that period.

To be clear, I'm not talking about Brady vs. Rodgers all time, only which guy was the best player in any given year. You don't think Rodgers has been a top 10 QB over the last three years? Not sure what sport you're watching.

When would you say he's been considered the consensus best QB? Despite his amazing 2007, I think if you could go back and poll people at the time most would have still picked Manning to start a new team. It was Rodgers who was the best player in 2011 when Manning was out with those neck surgeries, and then Manning came back with two MVP seasons right after, followed by Rodgers winning it again. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I think most would have taken Rodgers over Brady these last three years as the top guy despite Rodgers's injuries and brutal teams he's had to carry to the playoffs. Brady's been fantastic and has probably been the second best QB over that period but he's also been playing on the best team in the league and for the best coach. He's had that advantage for pretty much his whole career. Has there ever been a player in any other sport who was considered the GOAT and yet was never really the consensus best player at his position for an extended period? I think It's a fair question.

The GOAT QB discussion is more interesting to me. It would seem the consensus is Brady is now the guy. Two questions: How can Brady be the GOAT if he was never really considered to be the best QB at any point in his career? Manning was the guy early, then Rodgers for the last several years. How do you separate Brady's greatness from that of the Pats organization, and specifically Belichick? Further to the second point, I'll make a cross sport comparison. By any statistical measure, Martin Brodeur is the greatest goalie of the modern era. But how can we call him the GOAT when Hasek was the much better player during their respective primes? Brodeur greatly benefited from an institutional advantage with the Devils whereas Hasek was forced to carry the Sabres every year just to make the playoffs. I'd argue it's the same with Brady and Manning. Both Brady and Brodeur clearly distinguished themselves individually during the latter stages of their careers but I'd argue their GOAT candidacies are much more reliant on longevity and strength of their teams/organizations over the years than people are willing to admit.

I actually saw Tremaine out and about the other day. He was shopping when all of a sudden these five dogs got off the leash and were running right at him. He threw down his bags and got into an athletic position to try and stop the dogs for their owner. One by one they deked him out and just kept on going, except for the last one who stopped and bit Edmunds's leg after making him fall down. Then TE got mad and he ate the dog! We probably shouldn't have used two draft picks on him.

This isn't about the Allen pick, or even trading away all our picks to get him. If he's the right guy, then it's worth it. This is entirely about McBeane messing up the other QB spot(s) on the roster to the point where now they have to play Josh before he's ready and with little to no help. They're throwing the kid into the olympics before they've fully taught him how to swim. All they needed to do was get through the first half of the season so he could see and learn how teams prepare and what he needs to do, and then play him when we're out of it and the pressure is off. He'll still probably suck at that point because he's such a raw rookie, but the weight of the world wouldn't be on his shoulders and he wouldn't have enough games left for the fans and his own teammates to turn on him. That last part is a real thing btw. Allen probably needs several games plus another off season of work to iron out some of the fundamental kinks in his game. He may not get that second part now if he doesn't improve and the team watches him lose his confidence. At that point he's just Peterman with no support in the locker room. Once that's gone, it's over.

Yeah...I just don't get the opinion that this is business as usual for a rookie QB. 100% agree with OP. Maybe Allen won't be ruined by this experience and will overcome the terrible spot he's been put in but don't tell me it isn't a terrible spot for a raw, rookie QB. McBeane F'd this up and they know it. There was too much invested in Josh to handle the situation this way. Too much at stake to not give him every advantage to succeed. Imagine you're starting a new job out of Uni, the hot shot new recruit. Except, while still in your training period the company fires the manager and promotes you to be manager. Now you have to lead all these people even though you don't fully know your job and the whole industry is watching your every move. Now pretend all those people under you are also counting on you to make them look good so they can earn their living and provide for their families. This just wouldn't happen in any other walk of life, and should never have happened on the Bills. It's BY FAR the most questionable decision I've seen by the Bills in a long, long time and there have been a lot of questionable decisions.

Reasons not to sign Tebow: Big distraction for the organization Vote of no confidence for Allen before he's even played a game He wasn't good even before he got booted from the NFL He hasn't played in several years and would be unlikely to be in football shape Tebow was never known to be a cerebral QB, and wouldn't likely be much help coaching Allen in meetings or otherwise

Earliest he'd get fired is near the end of next season. Pegulas will have signed off on this rebuild so they knew there was a good chance this was going to be a down year. Next year will be the money year. If McBeane can't improve the roster and they wind up whiffing on Allen, there could be some fire the coach buzz going into the final few games. I still doubt they'd do it, but you never know what gets said or how things play out behind the scenes. Three years is enough time to determine whether your new coach/GM have the goods IMO.

Between Wentz and Goff, Wentz was considered far more NFL ready at the draft and even coming out of camp. Eagles also had a SB level roster to surround Wentz and take some of the pressure off him. Everyone keeps comparing him to Allen because they both came from small schools but the comparison ends there. They're completely different QBs, with polar opposite situations (as far as help talent), and their learning curves coming into the league couldn't be anymore dissimilar.

I agree OP. I would never normally say that but McBeane have put Allen (and themselves) in such a tough spot that depending how the season plays out they may have no choice. If they'd just brought him along slowly and waited until second half of the year to start him, no one would be calling for his head in 2018. But as it stands, Allen is going to have 15 games to show he's the man (or not). That's more than enough time. If he doesn't show significant progress then I think you move on from him. They may even have to bench him part way through the season if it gets ugly enough, and that almost never works out for the QB. He's just so raw, who knows how this will go. All we can do is hope Allen overcomes this impossibly bad spot he's been put in.

Not only that but Aikman was the number one overall pick and considered ready to start right out of camp. Manning was the number one overall pick and considered ready to start right out of camp. Allen was considered raw at the draft, a bit of a reach at 7, and seemed no where near ready to start coming out of camp. The better comparison is Goff. Even though he was taken at one the Rams knew he needed time, so they had Case Keenum start those first nine games then put Goff in when they were out of it and the pressure was off. He sucked, predictably, but the consequences weren't as big at that point so no one was calling for his head. He got reps in a less stressful environment and was able to take that experience into year two when the Rams were able to put a much improved team around him. I thought his was our plan too, but McBeane would rather throw Allen to the wolves I guess. The national media is just dying to give this kid the bust label, and you know fans will turn on him if he doesn't look good before the end of the year. I can't recall a team putting their unproven rookie QB in this tough of a spot.

Coaches will seemingly do anything to protect a QB's confidence. Pete Carroll apparently traded, cut, or didn't re-sign several veteran members of the Seahawks this off season because they dared to question Russell Wilson. Countless teams over the years have held their rookie QBs back from starting in order to not expose them to the potential of immediate failure or adversity before they were ready, including the Browns, Cards, and up until Peterman crapping the bed, the Bills, this year. Clearly the NFL thinks you can ruin QBs. Sometimes sports leagues have medieval thinking. I don't think this is one of those times.

12 emphatic head nods 9 scrambles for his life 47 aggressive hand claps from his coach 8 really really hard throws 2 extra really really hard throws to Kelvin Benjamin (he drops both) 7 pats on the butt 3 TD celebrations 1 very needed win

It was only one game. We have quite a bit of evidence from last year that this is actually a fairly decent defense. Are there holes? Yes. Our edge rushers aren't great and we're short one good outside corner. But there's talent and a nice mix of vets and young players. Give it another week or two. The offense put the team in some really tough spots, not to mention they couldn't move the ball AT ALL so the D was gassed by mid second quarter.

Kaep has been out of football for 2+ years and would be a huge distraction at this point. Also, now that we've named Allen QB1 you don't want to turn around and immediately give him a vote of no confidence by signing a guy who's perceived to be good enough to take his job. That needed to happen before Allen was named starter. At this point, you want JA to be the undisputed guy that the locker room rallies behind. McBeane made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

You're missing the point. If McBeane gives KB a giant contract at the end of the year then we'll know they're frauds. I really doubt that happens. They traded for KB because we had no WRs, he was a known quantity, and was cost controlled for two years. I'm saying those guys weren't players to build around based on everything we learned about them during their stints in Buffalo. Again, you want to pay your team leaders. You don't pay your malcontents or non-leaders if you don't have a strong leadership base in the locker room which Buffalo didn't. And you can think it's BS but fact was that Sammy was always hurt, and kind of one dimensional if we're being real about it. Dareus was frequently out of shape and in trouble with the law. Shady has legal issues. This was a team without a real core that was built for 3-4 years ago. Bills needed a reset in the worst way. What was the alternative? Pay those guys, be capped out in perpetuity and watch us go 7-9 with TT for the next five years? Where/how were we going to get a new QB? That trainwreck would have gotten far uglier than this one will be. At least now we have a couple of kids that might be worth building around. But like I said it remains to be seen whether McBeane can actually pull this off. So much depends on Josh Allen.

Sammy was always hurt, and then washed out in LA. He's been a huge disappointment, and was angling for a giant contract from us if you'll recall. Gilmore signed for 65M. Never was a leader and wasn't even that great a Bill tbh. Definitely not worth that money. It's different when you have Brady and Belichick in your locker room. I'm sad we didn't keep Woods. His contract was totally reasonable and that one looks like a misfire but players also have to want to stay. It's not like we would have franchised him. Bottom line, you pay your leaders that you want to build around and we didn't have any (outside of the old guard). The core of the team was old and needed a reset. It was a huge problem, and now at least that's been addressed (in theory).

I know, I know. But again, it was just a collection of players. The leaders of that team were Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, and Shady who are all old and either no longer here or on their way out. You weren't going to be able to build around any of the other guys we were paying, so I get why they did what they did. It's really hard to find high character leaders who also have the talent, but it's so important you get them (and we paid out the nose to do so unfortunately). We weren't going anywhere with Dareus, Sammy, et. al.

Yup it's another in a long line of attempted rebuilds. But it's different from the Rex Ryan era which was mostly re-tool around veterans. All we can do is hope McBeane bets correctly on their guys. I actually like McD as a coach. Players seem bought in. We'll see if they can get the offense straightened out. Even if they're successful it's going to take at least 2-3 years to get this team back to the playoffs. They're starting from the ground up with very little young talent to work with.

I would have agreed with this before McD made the Allen announcement but at this point I think we're riding with what we have. If you bring in RG3 now, all you're doing is making Allen look over his shoulder. It's a vote of no confidence right out of the gate. If it had been done beforehand they could have said Allen is still working and developing behind the scenes and RG3 could have started. The way it is now, at least Allen will have the full team behind him (until he craps the bed). That extra confidence and support will help out a lot over the next couple weeks or until he starts having success. The moment he looks like he's losing confidence, then you pull him and swing a deal but before that point.

No their plan was a good one (i.e. accumulate enough assets that will allow you to pick your future captains). Pretty sure their intent is to move away from a collection of talented players (Whaley era) to more of a team building approach where the guys and chemistry compliment each other. But you need cornerstones first. The issue is did they get the right guys? That part remains to be seen. Also, I think they badly miscalculated Allen's market. I bet they could have stood pat at 12 and he would have been there. Hard to know for sure though. The o line was bad luck. I'm sure they thought they'd have Richie and EWood for another year or two. That has to be a priority next off season along with WR. I have faith McBeane can find patch work solutions for the D until we can rebuild that side too. We're not nearly as far away there as week one would suggest. No man, we're definitely rebuilding. McBeane traded away virtually every good Whaley era player and brought in patch work solutions, then we used our draft capital to buy our captains of the future which they plan on rebuilding around. This is a classic rebuild.

According to pro-football reference, Peterman is the 13th worst QB since 1950 based on passer rating (currently 25.7 over five games) for QBs with at least two starts and 10 passes attempted. As for Bills, he narrowly edges out Brian Brohm (15h) and Ed Rutkowski (16th) as the worst rated Bills ever. Edit: Buffalo also has Dan Darragh and Gary Marangi in the bottom 33. Bills are dominating the WOAT list. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1950&year_max=2018&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos[]=qb&draft_year_min=1936&draft_year_max=2018&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&draft_pick_in_round=pick_overall&conference=any&draft_pos[]=qb&draft_pos[]=rb&draft_pos[]=wr&draft_pos[]=te&draft_pos[]=e&draft_pos[]=t&draft_pos[]=g&draft_pos[]=c&draft_pos[]=ol&draft_pos[]=dt&draft_pos[]=de&draft_pos[]=dl&draft_pos[]=ilb&draft_pos[]=olb&draft_pos[]=lb&draft_pos[]=cb&draft_pos[]=s&draft_pos[]=db&draft_pos[]=k&draft_pos[]=p&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=2&c2stat=pass_att&c2comp=gt&c2val=10&c5val=1.0&order_by=pass_rating&order_by_asc=Y

No they traded McCarron because they thought Peterman would be a decent option to keep us afloat for the first half of the year while they coached up Allen (presumably to start once Peterman and the team eventually faltered). If they thought Allen was ready he would have started week one. He's only starting now because they misjudged Peterman so badly. I wish people would stop misrepresenting the situation. It's irritating, and puts undo expectations on our rookie who needs time and patience, and for the fan base to not get its collective hope up to the point where they turn on him if/when he doesn't experience early success. 3. I mean, his completion percentage and passing yards in that game would seem to be at odds with him being on point, just sayin 4. I agree KB needs to catch that, and he's had several other drops throughout preseason and game one where "touch" wasn't nearly the issue. I can see why Carolina fans were so frustrated with him.

Young started the final five games his rookie season. Steve DeBerg started the first eleven in which they were 1-10. I think everyone on this board would be ok if we waited to play Allen until the second half of the season when we're already out of it and pressure is off. Also, Steve Young took a ton of needless hits early in his career before he figured out how to play and eventually all the concussions caught up with him. Terrible example.