VW82

What's this based on? Total yards (passing + rushing) / Total TD: Lamar: 4807 yrd / 43 td Allen: 4262 yrd / 40 td It's the Lebron phenomenon. Lebron fans will denigrate anyone, including HOFers, in order to prop up Lebron in all contexts. I fear we're doing the same with Josh.

And Cook has more explosive plays, rushing yards per game, and much better Y/A (5.0 vs. 4.3). The strength of our RB and TE rooms are the depth. Kincaid goes down and there's basically no drop off to Knox. Ty Johnson has been one of the best 3rd down RBs in the league.

Ok well when this discussion first started, it was "weakest set of weapons compared to any other QB in the conversation" and now it's "less than elite" so just wanted to clarify. I agree he has a much weaker WR group than Burrow, but Josh has a better OL, RBs, and TEs. Josh also has a better defense which is important if we're counting wins. Lamar has better RB, but the OL, WR, and TE are debateable. I'd lean Bills there though Ravens probably have a healthy advantage in terms of WR top end talent (but not depth). Josh's EPA per play is 0.33 vs. Lamar at 0.32. It's pretty close. Lamar leads the league in TD%, Y/A, Passer Rating, QB rushing yards, QBR, ANY/A, 538ELO,...they're both well back of Burrow in WPA. I think Josh will win it, but it'll be as much narrative as anything else. It's "his turn," he's made as many or more best-player-in-the-league plays this season as anyone, and we have more wins than Ravens to your earlier point. I just don't think he's the favourite in terms of stats alone, and I don't buy that his offensive teammates just aren't as good, so we can agree to disagree there.

I wonder if this is generally agreed upon by most NFL fans. Do you have basis for this argument beyond just your opinion? Edit: and I assume by "less than elite" you mean "less than his contemporaries."

Ok. Let's back up for a second. Can we agree that Josh is the best player in the league? Yes? Good. I'm making the case that Josh doesn't have the best statistical case. Do we still disagree? Edit: you answered this above

For the record, I would vote Josh MVP. He's the best. I'm just highlighting the fact that his statistical case isn't exactly ironclad.

Passer rating (9th), AY/A (6th), ANY/A (3rd), Passing TD (9th), Passing yards (11th), Y/Q (7th),...etc., etc.

EPA isn't the be-all-end-all. Equating it to MVP is too simplistic imo, just as equating DVOA to best team is too simplistic. I don't think voters look at it that way. Burrow isn't in the MVP converation. I wasn't one of those people. This feels a little strawman-ish. Plus, we traded for Amari Cooper. Cook is T1 for rushing TDs. Our RB and TE rooms are some of the best in the league. Our Oline including Six w Anderson is one of the best in the league. It just isn't accurate to claim Josh hasn't been working with the same calibre of weapons.

Completion percentage above expected.

Yes he's good in EPA per play but middle of the pack in CPOE. Jackson, Goff, Daniels, Burrow, Hurts are all way out in front there. My point is you have to get hyper-specific to make a statistical case for Josh because he's not all that close in most of them. Edit: I'd also disagree wrt weapons. We've had this discussion before so I won't rehash that here.

It's tough because Josh has basically zero statistical case outside of QBR which has been ridiculed here repeatedly. His entire claim this season is narrative based which historically is a good thing to have but perhaps not the most solid argument.

It was a horrible throw that even the announcers picked up on. Surely Josh isn't above constructive criticism.

I’m dismissing him because he obviously isn’t doing enough to stay on field. It takes Coleman being out for him to even hit 50%. if Cooper was playing like some world beater drawing extra coverage he’d be out there more often.

We're used to teams having success running on us, but seeing average to below average QBs have their best days throwing on us is something we haven't typically seen in the McD era. Lots has been said about the Dline but there are problems at all three levels. Bernard looks like JAG. Dorian > Milano. Spector is unplayable. Taron Johnson looks mortal now. Douglas/Benford/Ingram/Elam have given up plays all year. Our safety play has ranged from OK to downright bad. Every time we plug a hole, a new one opens up. I thought Von was starting to come around. The last few weeks he's looked totally washed / ineffective. Oliver has his best game of the year (and first good game in weeks) vs. Lions, and then perhaps his worst game vs. Pats. There's no consistency. Every team deals with injuries. The problem with this group is it isn't even sure what it does well.

He's still behind Mack Hollins in snaps. This notion that teams are "rolling coverage" his way nonsense. Show me tape of something consistent. Cooper isn't even on the field enough for that to be true.

Amari Cooper is quietly having very quiet impact and we should quietly decrease his snaps in the postseason and then quietly let him walk in the offseason.

Fair enough. Oliver blew up the Lions Oline last week. But Pats pushed us back until we started sending more guys in the second half. It'd be nice to feel like you don't need to do that every week just to get a stop. This wasn't the Lions or Rams.

Given the way they're playing now, that would put both firmly on the downside of their careers because we've seen them play better for extended stretches.

We need to get healthier, and for guys like Oliver and Rousseau to step up more than one out of every 3-4 games.

Josh will get a pass for his stats because he got hurt in a cold weather game. He needs two strong games to win out and then he wins it as long as Lamar doesn't so something so impressive that he can't be denied.

We went back to looking like the less physically imposing team. No one wins SBs like that. And we're sloppy.

Hey, they have three timeouts left so they can kick away. Are we sure NFL teams are allowed to do that?

Elam needs redemption

not a catch

of course another flag