BillnutinHouston

I don't have an answer, but kudos for raising an interesting topic. This question (what's in it for Rogers?) has occurred to me as well. I think your hypothesis is as good as any. Maybe Rogers IS toying with adding the NFL to their portfolio. If they keep the team based in Buffalo, they get the benefit of an occasional game up north without being condemned at home as unpatriotic for launching a direct challenge to the CFL. This scenario is yet another one in favor of the Bills-Toronto Series. Lining up deep-pocketed investors behind the Bills is a spectacularly good thing for the long-term viability of the franchise.

I think the last place you want to look for an accurate macro-level view of the Bills offense is the media. They are all about glamour. Instead, try looking at the actual offensive rankings from last season. NFL.com shows that last year's Bills offense was actually ranked as follows out of 32 teams: - 13th in rushing - 15th in passing - 14th in yards - 14th in scoring Based on these metrics, I don't see "big problems".

I'll take a shot at trying to help you understand. It's true that under the revenue sharing framework that Ralph imposed on his colleagues, and with the modestly-upgraded stadium that Ralph has been content to play in that results in no debt service for the team, the franchise CAN make money in Buffalo. And if an Act of Congress was passed to make moving the team illegal, the status quo would be sufficient to allow Bills fans to confidently look to the future under a new owner. But alas, no such Act of Congress is coming. So when "highest bidder" time comes, that bidder could be a Pegula, or (gasp) it could be the next Jerry Jones. I hope you are feeling lucky, because by adamantly clinging to the status quo you are essentially content to roll the dice on a Pegula winning the auction. On the other hand, I'm convinced that it's wise to strengthen the market to actually compel the next Jerry Jones to give Buffalo a second look because it can offer him a competitive advantage (not just be "OK") when compared to his other options. I have to believe that the vast majority of the anti-Toronto crowd doesn't get outside the bubble of WNY enough to fully appreciate just how comparatively small Buffalo really is. For those folks, I urge you to review data like this and consider it within the competitive context of the NFL. The next owner (I think it's more accurate to use the term "investor") will make decisions based on the future, not on the present and certainly not on the past. That's why I applaud Ralph's efforts to start mining the Toronto market. It's not so much about how those efforts pay off today, but rather about the future growth possibilities it demonstrates. Demonstrating this market growth potential will be critical to the next owner's decisionmaking. For an owner with a 50-year history in Buffalo, current economic conditions in Buffalo are "OK", but unfortunately, the next owner will set the bar much higher so hunkering down is simply not a good option if you want to try and control your own destiny moving forward.

Attention "New Stadium for Buffalo" crowd: study this ^^ very carefully and please rethink your position.

Honestly, the general public lacks the facts to prove or disprove this statement. It's fine for any fan to casually throw this statement out there, but unfortunately, "any fan" is not the one who will set the threshold in the real world - it's the monied investors who want TOP return on their investment. Being "sufficient" might be enough for Ralph, but how do you know it's enough for the next investor? Time will tell, but the INVESTORS will be the judge, not the fans thinking with their hearts. So kudos to Ralph for trying to level the playing field and increase the sufficiency of the WNY market to the next investor.

Yes, but to what degree compared to other teams' season ticket bases? Are they up to maybe 45,000 after a stellar offseason? Sorry but that number doesn't impress me.

One answer is Pittsburgh's superior front office, which has produced a far superior on-field product. Another is Pittsburgh's far stronger demographics/buying power. In a 2009 ranking of US cities' buying power, Pittsburgh ranked 29th while Buffalo plodded along at a distant 55th. My link

I never said that Ralph is not all about the money, so I'm not sure how my premise is "destroyed". I actually think he's a hard-bitten capitalist. What I actually said was that Ralph is far more loyal than a subsequent investor might be (who's beholden to fellow investors and might not have any history with the area). I think he's demonstrated this loyalty by continuing to creatively operate within the constraints of the Buffalo market rather than bolting to greener pastures and having it "easier". To make his franchise work the hard way, he's had to: - consistently seek very modest stadium upgrades vs. the new stadiums that the majority of his peers are or have gotten over the last 10-15 years - keep ticket prices among the lowest in the league and not pursuing PSL's - push his peers to enact revenue sharing measures, sometimes having to be a boat-rocker within the owners' club to accomplish his objectives - and yes, I view his initial efforts to try and cultivate the Toronto market for the next owner as just the latest example of his working to make the WNY market work for an NFL franchise. Many believe that the ONLY way Ralph can demonstrate loyalty is by ENSURING the next owner locks into Buffalo. I disagree because I think that would only offer a false sense of security. Ralph knows this, so by building the revenue sharing infrastructure within the NFL, avoiding stadium debt service and yes, strengthening WNY's supporting demographics by broadening the market into Canada, he has laid the groundwork and established a solid base on which a Buffalo-based franchise can be sustained over the long haul - for himself and the next owner who he knows may NOT be intrinsically loyal to Buffalo. It's like the old adage about how teaching a man to fish is more sustainable than giving a man a fish. Ralph is teaching Buffalo to fish rather than throwing a fish on our plate so we don't have to rely on ironclad contracts without escape clauses and owner/investor loyalty which he knows is going out of style. While this approach doesn't offer the immediate certainty we'd all like, I think that this market-based plan (and I hope I'm right about it!) is pretty freaking genius myself.

Agreed, I'm convinced you're onto something there. Being a Buffalo expatriate and returning occasionally (luckily for me it's for Bills games!) continually reminds me just how comparatively small the WNY market is. I think many of the locals are too close to the situation to fully appreciate this, and more to the point, what the Bills' have to compete with in terms of economic power in other NFL markets. In a similar thread yesterday, another poster mentioned how Phoenix has had 61 straight sellouts in the midst of many losing years, making the point that size matters when it comes to the market. To quantify the disparity between Phoenix and Buffalo, I googled "buying power index" and found that as of a few years ago, Phoenix was ranked 14th in the US in the number of households with purchasing power in excess of $150K, whereas Buffalo was ranked 67th. I completely understand why the Bills are doing this. I may not like it, but I understand it and accept it as a condition of being in the elite circle of communities with an NFL team.

I'm reassured to see that the bottom line principle for you is Ralph selling to who HE'S comfortable with. So, if Ralph happens to be comfortable selling to a group who wants to move the team, he "should" be allowed to sell it to them. Correct? If I'm misstating your position, then please explain how you or anyone outside of his immediate family have the standing to say what Ralph "should" do.

Do the naysayers think that the buying power of a region might make a difference? According to these stats, on the index of households with effective buying income of $150,000 or more, Phoenix ranks 14th and Buffalo ranks 67th. Shame on Ralph for trying to level the playing field! Not sure anyone's making the case that the Rogers deal is the end-all-and-be-all. But, do efforts at cracking the Toronto market help or hurt? If they help even incrementally, they still help. So, the naysayers seem to want to dictate who Ralph sells to, AND they want to tell him who he shouldn't market to. Got it. *** I think it's fascinating that Mary Owen is listed in the article as a member of the NFL's International Committee. ***

To all naysayers, I ask you to try this exercise: Leave aside all emotional reactions as a fan, and put yourself in the cold, calculating shoes of the next owner of/investor in the franchise. Now ask yourself, does the Toronto Series make the WNY market a more or less economically feasible place to keep the franchise, long term? I would submit that we really don't have the luxury of "liking" this deal or not. Instead, the key is to focus on the economic feasibility ramifications. Franchise investing is not just about making a profit, it's about making SUFFICIENT profit. If the Bills do not expand their market, investors will look to greener pastures. As much as Ralph is villified here, he's far more loyal to this area than another "highest bidder" investor group might be, with the intense pressures they'll be under to turn profits rather quickly. Whether I like it or not, it's clearly a better plan to rely on the numbers working than have to rely on some unknown group's questionable loyalty to WNY. And I'd submit that leaving a franchise with a)an expanded market by virtue of having created an established pipeline into Canada's largest market and b) a modestly renovated stadium with minimal debt service to the team is a winning combination of numbers that bodes well for WNY into the future. Short of forcing the new owners to commit to Buffalo, Ralph could not have positioned the team any better for WNY.

When you think through the posts on this thread, it really hits home how much this roster has been upgraded over the last few years. This year's training camp will truly separate the men from the boys.

Can you bring a minor there?

Here you go. Now what do I win again?

It's ironic that the Bills are working to take advantage of their geographic proximity to Toronto and become the NFL's gateway to Canada's largest market, yet many Bills fans can only see it as a threat. Given WNY's economy, I think the real threat to the Buffalo franchise is in hunkering down and trying to keep "outsiders" out.

It's a pretty standard premise in business that expanding market share is preferable to standing pat with a stagnant or declining share. Nothing is static in business, especially in a dynamic business like the NFL - you are either growing or declining. If you're in charge of business development for the Bills, operating within the WNY economy WITH THE INTENT OF REMAINING THERE AND/OR STAYING COMPETITIVE, how do you NOT pursue an increase in market share? Without studying the team's balance sheet, the precise IMMEDIATE VALUE of the Toronto series is open to endless debate. But I don't think the ULTIMATE GOAL can be. There is nothing to this series that can rationally be interpreted as "grooming the team to move". What does that even mean, specifically? Is that, psychologically preparing the fanbase for the team's departure? Do you really think the team would put such time and effort in an initiative like that? If so, then for what purpose? The only explanation for a Bills fan's lack of support for the team's business development efforts is fear and mistrust. The Toronto series is like a Rorschach (inkblot) test in terms of how you view the intentions of ownership. If you don't trust Ralph you see the series as putting one foot out the door. If you accept the idea that he's doing all he can to stay competitive in WNY, you understand the intent and are thus willing to swallow the bitter pill. The latter is where I am, completely. Personally, if the Bills WEREN'T aggressively trying to expand their market, THAT'S when I'd be concerned about the owner's intentions! You can either fear the future, or prepare for it and embrace it. I think the latter is exactly what the Bills are doing. And by moving in this direction, make no mistake about it - they are INCREASING the attractiveness of the WNY market to the next ownership group. Put yourself in the shoes of the next owner who's looking at seeing how the numbers work. Does the Bills' expanding foothold into the Toronto market make you more or less inclined to keep the team in WNY rather than moving it West?

I also have lower bowl (10 yard line) and 50 yard line club seats listed for sale on The Trading Post, for a variety of games.

I suspect every GM tries to guard against falling in love with a player, then staying in love too long. A healthy detachment is needed (see the Patriots), and I believe Moorman is a prime example where it will come into play this year. My first reaction to this article was, can the guy function as a holder? Sometimes that role is even more critical than punting. If he can hold for kicks and if Lindell becomes comfortable with him, I think the time has come for a change.

Outstanding!

With due respect my response would be, why does Brandon owe anyone (other than the owner, and maybe the prospective new owner) this explanation? The Bills ownership situation is far more precarious than it is for nearly every other team. As a result, the current move toward regionalization is more about building a foundation for the long term success of the Buffalo franchise than it is about the immediate number of Canadian butts in the seats. As rocky as they've been, the team's initial efforts to tap the Canadian market can only help maintain the viability of the Buffalo franchise in the minds of the next ownership group. When the time comes for a cold, hard business decision to be made about whether to keep the team in WNY or to move it, how do you quantify the value of the team's initial entry into the Toronto market? I don't think you can.

Having lived in San Antonio, I'd say you can cross them off your list. It doesn't have NFL-caliber demographics (has lots of people but it's not a wealthy town), is a dyed-in-the-wool Cowboys' town, and any proposed team for SA would be fought tooth and nail by Jerry Jones who claims it as part of his market.

The statement you quoted from my original post was in Breer's article. It wasn't my assertion.

I believe this is just the lastest in a long line of outsiders looking in and trying to speculate, but here it is FWIW: NFL.com article Buffalo Bills Owner Ralph Wilson, who is in his 90s, has said the team will not be moved while he's still living. The club's succession plan is to put the team in a trust and sell to the highest bidder. Still, the club is negotiating a new lease and renovation plan, and its regionalization efforts have been largely successful. Thirty-two percent of the club's tickets sales have come from Rochester, an hour away, and Southern Ontario, and the league is interested in continuing to cultivate the Toronto market. Down the line, could a new deep-pocketed owner swoop in, and whisk the team away? It's not impossible. But chances are, that won't happen any time soon.

Stubhub has some nice seats available.