Tyrod's friend

Good. Let's go with that; I'm saying that this draft will produce numerous, starting QBs in the NFL. I'm saying that before you lost your Pro Bowl G, there was plenty of noise regarding staying right at 12, building up a roster, and recognizing that there was little difference between possibly 2 QBs and all the rest. I'm saying that the facts have now changed. You just moved into a world where that Pro Bowl guy is gone and now the draft picks from 12-65 suddenly have become immensely more important to you and the differences between the 5th QB in the draft and the 7th are getting less and the importance of building an already weak roster have become incredibly more important. And you can out this post next year. I never, ever hide from my opinions and they stay pretty consistent.

As of right now, is there a worse offensive line in football? As of right now, has there been a worse offensive line in the last three years? You have projected Mills, Ducasse, Bodine, Groy, and Dawkins. Three of them are not a little bit worse than league average; a fourth is at best unknown at his position, and the LT was playing out of position. You dropped the heart and soul of a depleted offensive line. Talk what you will about Richie Incognito - he was an elite player on an offense that was pitiful last year and had only one other elite player, and that was a running back that followed him into holes he created. I'm sure the offensive line will do just fine. And hey, let's go ahead and put a rookie behind that offensive line. What could possibly go wrong?

How many teams plan for the heart of their interior line to simply walk away from the game, one of them less than 20 days before the draft? Depth charts only go so far, Wayne. When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? ~ John Maynard Keynes (attributed)

There are good people on this site that know that stuff cold. I'm not it.

Sure. So ... let's trade up for a QB. Surrender a bunch of picks to do it. Not play the QB, because, you know, we can wait a couple of years. Have whomever is playing get THEIR butt kicked. Basically, have no 2018 draft because your first round pick doesn't play, you've traded the other first round pick, you've traded the second round picks and all you have to show for trading away Watkins, Darius, Glenn and the rights to Mahomes and Watson is ... What exactly? I love your strategy. Let's go. I'm pumped.

Exactly. But it doesn't change our draft plans. WTF. I get back to Richie though ... you know, what he said about his internal organs. Richie always seemed to me to be a 'roid guy. Gotta wonder if that stuff didn't burn him up inside. Sucks. He was a warrior.

Because the plan was presumably moving up to take Rosen. Tell me, wise one, exactly how you were planning on protecting him with Bodine, Groy, Ducasse and Mills on the offensive line? Especially if moving up entailed trading away #12, 22 and probably at least one if not two 2nds? I'm presuming that starting offensive lineman are falling from the sky in your draft projections and you'll fill up with 3rd round picks. It almost certainly changes what you are doing. A Pro Bowl guard, and really the heart and soul of what remains of your offensive line, just retired two weeks ahead of the draft. And you think it doesn't change what you'd do in the draft? ??? That's freaking amazing.

LMAO. Yeah. He's the only guy that played at a truly high level on your line. When he goes, you now have a line made up of three players significantly below league average play. The other two include Groy and really, a Guard playing LT. It's about context; there's not nonsense about having potentially four guys that are terrible. And then you'd still like to move up in the draft, now looking to replace a center (presuming you don't want Bodine starting) and a guard, with very possibly no 1st round picks because you surrendered them in order to draft ... a rookie QB. Yeah. I'm overreacting. Post Script; if Incognito's health is really that bad, well, what are you going to do. He's a warrior and hardly a jerkoff.

Really? You want an offensive line filled with Mills, Ducasse, Groy, some backup and a LT that should be a RG? Did you even watch the offensive line last year? Good luck with that. Sure, let's go ahead and draft up to get a QB on top of it. You are nuts. For a $1.25MM??? You want to play hardball for what amounts to a backup RB? Granted, maybe the league rules amount to something where you can't renegotiate. But this is hardly an overreaction.

F that. Take table scraps at QB in the 2nd 3rd 4th. Stay at 12, take McGlinchey, then take Will Hernandez or Isiah Wynn at 22. If you lose Incognito on top of Wood, with Mills/Ducasse you just hit the panic button and the ship is going down. (maybe overreaction but not much)

Yeah, now is not the time to play hard ball with RIchie Incognito. If the guy wants another $1.25 MM then cut someone and make it happen. If you don't have Incognito, you can't move up in the draft. It's pretty much that simple.

I understand the idea of the play being projectable - but really, isn't that the entire NFL draft process? Nobody wants a 5'7" player out of NCAA. it just doesn't matter. But the idea of a player with basically three years of experience in total in his background getting his experience against LeBeau and Belichek? And it's more than that. It's literally his decision making process, what is going through his head. Now we are going to send that decision making process through the stratosphere in terms of speed and you are asking him to learn on the job. I realize the flaws in the comparison but Josh Rosen probably threw more passes in high school than Darnold has in his entire career. Can it be done? It gets back to the initial point of projectability. I make the point frequently about muscle memory and that last 1/8 second between your eye/mind/motion. Sam Darnold is going to literally build those synapses in the NFL and perhaps even more risk than Josh Allen. Hey I'm guessing, I get it. There would have been two components that would have tempered my thought - that Darnold improved dramatically in his second season, and that he already was advanced in his decision making. Instead he regressed somewhat and when his decision making has been there, it's been because of ability and not the decision itself. Armchair gm here, admittedly. Cheers, Alex

Well, either Kyle Allen or that other ex-Houston QB John O'Korn. They sure do build egos bigger in Texas.

There is a cultural connection between the Namath-seeking Jets and Baker I can't see avoiding. He is "back page", all day long in a city that is dominated by newspapers like no other. Possibly Rosen - simply because NYC has "more Jews than Tel Aviv" (that used to be so, I don't know if it is - but PR is more important in NYC. And he'll be good there.

Both of them were heavily overrated coming out of college, and I think Darnold is overrated as well - particularly as the #1, overall draft in the NFL. There is no real history of any player having his background, with substantial success in the NFL. In fact, contrary to Pro Bowl abilities a 2 year starter that regressed in his second year historically has been someone you should shun. I realize I'm alone on this, but there are combination of traits that make Darnold particularly dangerous that you can't say about players like Rosen and Mayfield. Can he be good? Maybe in 2021. Maybe. Not #1 overall.

Greg Robinson Larry Tunsil Both rated higher than Sam Darnold - and not by a little bit. They were ranked nearly a 7.5, and it's not a linear scale. It's damned hard to be a 7.5. Neither one has been worth the ranking.

Josh Rosen was timed at a 57 MPH toss. Frame of reference: this is the same basic speed of Wentz or Goff, it's just barely slower than Mayfield. DeShaun Watson was timed at 49 MPH. Arm speed doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. What matters is that the ball gets there before the DB can react to the ball and there's about a million ways that can happen. Here's one remarkable way: Throw to an open receiver.

Not pointed at RWNW, but generally ... Number of QBs with only two years of college ball that have made the pros is incredibly limited. Those that did were especially gifted in some way; I do not believe that is anywhere near the consensus about Darnold. Other than his stature, his football skills are bested by others all over the place. And given his limited experience at the highest level he decision making has been questioned. He does occasionally make questionable calls under duress. In fact two year starters have a long history of being terrible NFL QBs. So you have a QB with limited starting experience. Under pressure, he makes mistakes - more so than, say either Mayfield or Rosen. At what point is that process supposed to change? I mean, in his second season, did Darnold get remarkably better? By all rights, at the start of the post season he was hardly a consensus go #1 overall pick. GunnerBill has rated him a mid-first pick, didn't he? It seems reasonable to ask how much of this is post season hype. I could be wrong there, it's hardly essential to my overall point. I keep banging on this drum. If there is a QB that is likely to fall, I think Darnold is the guy (outside of Allen). I think the Bills have done more diligence on either Mayfield or Rosen because they (like possibly other organizations) think that Darnold is at best the third choice and maybe even fourth. And somewhere my intuition is telling me that is why they waited this long to do their diligence meeting on Darnold. Not because he is so exclusive that they never thought there would be a chance, but because he isn't really someone they covet. If a team with such a blatant need for a QB waited this long, isn't that a "tell"?

Cool show. I watched the whole thing last night ... I had read this thread and thought for sure that O'Korn was going to do something magical in the Ohio State game. Came away thinking what a dork Harbaugh is (I mean, I like him as human being), and thinking not a little bit that he is a CTE candidate. Imagine telling a young WR in a hospital bed that the good news is that the kid is going to have an opportunity to spend five years at Michigan. The kid has been thinking NFL for the last six years, John. He doesn't give a crap about maize and blue.

About arm speed ... DeShaun Watson, timed at 45 MPH Nate Peterman, timed at 52 MPH Pat Mahomes, timed at 55 MPH AJ McCarron, timed at 52 MPH Wentz/Goff, timed around 56-57 Kellen Moore, timed around 52 (widely thought to have a poor arm) Russell WIlson, timed at 55 Tyrod Taylor, timed at 50 Logan Thomas (our TE), timed at 60 Colt (no arm) McCoy, timed at 56 Dak Prescott, timed at 54 Mitch Trubisky, timed at 51 2018: Allen, 62 Mayfield, 60 Rosen, 58 White, 54 Rudolph, Lauletta, Falk, Woodside, 52 Jackson, 49 Either arm speed makes a difference or it doesn't. It's been said - and it's obviously wrong - that while throwing fast doesn't mean you can be successful, throwing less than 55 is likely you are a failure. Anybody here not want DeShaun Watson, Mitch Trubisky or Dak Prescott? By that measure, then Lamar Jackson is a waste of a draft. He won't go anywhere (anywhere that DeShaun Watson hasn't gone.) OTOH, if you are talking $hit about AJM and Nate Peterman, stop talking up the Rudolph/Lauletta line. You might as well not draft a QB at all. It doesn't matter how fast you throw. It doesn't matter how fast you throw. It doesn't matter how fast you throw. YOU JUST NEED TO GET IT THERE BEFORE THE DB GETS THERE.

In a perfect world he would have been our OC. He has the kind of track record with QBs that makes me salivate. Cheers, Alex.

From Orlovsky ... You think Dick LeBeau Bill Belichek is easier to do it against? When he’s got Star Wars on the back end going on? Goes right to my point of thinking a QB will make massive leaps forward in the pros. It's incredibly difficult to change the muscle memory once you get to the pros. If you don't see improvement in college - and I mean, legitimate growth - thinking it is going to come under the stress of the pro game you're really bucking huge headwinds.

you can see why I thought it was KM. The attributes positive and negative both match to JG. FWIW ... my guess was without the benefit of Google. STRENGTHS Moore is a strong leader and very poised in the pocket and under pressure. He has a quick pass set that is balanced and under control. He gets rid of the ball quickly and picks his spots effectively, although his release is slightly a 3/4 sidearm. He has all the intangibles and is a very accurate thrower both short and long. He understands route progressions and how to put touch on the ball. He will scan the field and locate his second and third options. This is a quarterback that is under control. WEAKNESSES Moore is just under six feet tall, which is the major knock on his game as it translates to the next level. He struggles when throwing on the run and working outside the pocket, and is a very slow mover with his feet. The biggest knock on Moore is his arm strength, as he doesn't show the ability to drive the ball down the field with velocity. With the timing and effectiveness he has worked with under Boise State's system, Moore often lobs the ball and puts touch on it, his deep outs will likely be intercepted early in the NFL if he can't learn to drive it harder.

I'm going with Kellen Moore.

Ain't it the truth .. I love the different point of views. But the oddity is that we probably are from the same generation. I'd guess you loved the '68 Rose Bowl as much as I did.