whatdrought

No, it's because @JaCrispy slapped down an ignorant idiot who came into a civil conversation and starting spouting racist drivel, discrediting peoples opinions based on their skin color without ever engaging an idea with his own mind or intellect. That kind of ***** pisses me off. You want to have a wider conversation that's fine, and that article is super interesting and I am working through it (though hardly a sociologist am I) in small bites, but never once in this thread did I say a damn thing about how the disparity doesn't exist. If you've read the thread you've seen that I've been completely civil and sought to keep this thread an open conversation about this issue without it turning into a racial cluster you know what - up until that other guy rolls in here and can't make it through a single sentence without being racist. As for the "tidy anecdote" that you've just written @JaCrispy's life story off as, it's good stuff because it proves the reality that while we can look at the statistics and articles like you posted- we cannot find a way forward on the macro. It has to be on the micro. We can't say the whole system is broken and white men are ruining america without specic examples of where that is true, or in his case, where it hasn't been true. Statistics can be very easily weaponized into a narrative that doesn't tell the whole picture, and doesn't provide solutions but so easily has people willing to spout off without actually engaging in conversation, as seen up thread. That stuff is terrible. I'm more a buffalo and honey mustard guy myself.(though not together)

Good stuff.

Polynesian oil sounds like a salad dressing one would find at a panera bread...

Which two would those be?

No, the guy you were responding to.

Glad to see you endorse framing discussions, and the value of peoples opinion on what color they are.

Don't bother with this schmuck.

You're a waste of time.

Oh look, there's the racism we've all been looking for. Tool.

This is the very kind of stupid comment this intelligent, well done thread doesn't need. Be better or be worse elsewhere.

Wow... That isn't even the trolliest thing to happen to this board this week....

I doubt it as well, but he does strike me as one of those guys whose phenomenal on tape, but then doesn't blow the top off of the combine and pre-draft stuff and ends up getting bumped down the list due to some workout warriors leap frogging him. It happens with a couple of guys each year... That being said, with how top heavy this edge rusher draft is, I doubt anyone passes on him. Is there a link to this, by chance? I thought that about Tremaine 2 years ago and we got him with a pretty small trade up... The draft throws some curves each year... Ya never know.

I didn't see the second half of this post (responding to the tweets) until just now. The first tweet (first in my post, not chronologically) is accurate, he isn't a playcaller but neither were those guys so it should be looked past and it isn't a good reason not to hire him. The second tweet I posted is disingenuous as it ignores Judge's work with the Pats ST's and that (along with several other tweets regarding the RR) really heavily imply that he believes Bienime (I've spelt that 80 different ways today, still don't know what's right) was passed over due to being A.A. Not only does it accuse the Giants of racism, but it further accuses Judge of being unqualified and only getting the position because of his race. The Giants interviewed both of these guys and the implication, i think, with this line of discussion (Wyches tweets) is that the Giants sat back, said "this guy is a better candidate, but he's a minority, so lets go with the NE guy." and I just refuse to believe that in the absence of some concrete proof. I just find it upsetting that that accusation, whether direct or implied, is so easily bandied about without validation. There's nothing that clearly says that B. is a better coach than Judge is. If it was clear as all of that, there would be no ambiguity to the coaching carousal each year and it would be a matter of which team was gonna shell out the most cash. Now, I will say this to be completely fair to SW- I could be misreading this and piecing together a narrative that isn't there. His tweets directly about Judge and B. don't reference race or the RR. That being said, given the entire context of his twitter dealings from that day, it seems as if the race issue is his focus. But again, it may be two unrelated things so take my interpretation as just that.

I have no clue. Like I said, I didn't know jack about that draft. It is hard for me to imagine what happened that could have led to such a miscalculation... It does seem obvious, a one year starter at a sub-standard school... Big question marks, but alas it happens all the freaking time. Just for fun (and off topic) here's some stuff I found on google: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000791512/article/lance-zierlein-big-board-top-32-players-for-2017-nfl-draft https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704997-2017-nfl-draft-big-board-matt-millers-top-overall-player-rankings#slide2 This actually makes sense, all things considered: (with the exception of Trubisky as best prospect) Best Prospect: Mitchell Trubisky, North Carolina Most NFL-Ready: Deshaun Watson, Clemson Best Arm: Patrick Mahomes, Texas Tech Best Runner: Watson Most Potential: Mahomes Biggest Bust Potential: DeShone Kizer, Notre Dame Biggest Sleeper: Brad Kaaya, Miami (Fla.) Highest Risk: Mahomes Lowest Risk: Watson http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802568/article/mike-mayocks-2017-nfl-draft-top-100-prospect-rankings (Mayock here has Watson above Trubisky, but doesn't have Mahomes on his top 100) Crazy stuff man. I think all candidates should have equal opportunities. Whatever needs to happen for that to work, I'm pro. With how many times he's been an interim head coach, he's an all-pro head coach in waiting... Just never gonna get hired for a HC job... Always a bridesmaid...

It's possible that that perception was there and going back far enough definitely finds racist history deeply entrenched in the NFL, and obviously I don't agree with it. I just like to be careful with sweeping statements about how things "used to be" or "it's just how they are" (not accusing you, just in general) instead of looking at specific situations and what factors went into them. Hindsight always help the evaluation process. I didn't follow the draft that closely then, but I know the idea of Mitch being the cream of the QB crop wasn't a small population saying that, and I don't think that has to do with racist intent or undercurrent.

Same! I had a long thread about this typed out yesterday before this one and then deleted it cause I couldn't imagine it going well, but this has really been quite nice all things considered! Part of that could be a strategic move as well though... If you know you have to interview a minority before you hire someone, you dont want to get into a situation where you find the perfect guy who isn't a minority, but have to wait to sign him till you interview a minority and then he has 2 or 3 other teams calling his name. Obviously that's a lot of business thinking and not thinking about the people, but it seems very believable that the rule could facilitate that.

Glad you can emphasize with me for not liking false dichotomy's and unproven accusations of racism. ?

Randell Cunningham, Warren Moon, Doug Williams, Steve McNair come to mind. There isn't now, nor has there been historically, a huge number of African American QB's in the NFL, but is there a huge class of A.A. men that have the ability to play QB and wanted to that weren't allowed to? That goes back to using specifics instead of generalities and it's the same conversation as the "why aren't there white Cornerbacks?" rabbit hole.

Yep. Even NFL media guys like Steve Wyche who tweets something like this: This along with a lot of other things he's tweeted, retweeted, and liked, make it seem pretty clear that he believes the Giants passed on Bienemy because of his race which is, I think, offensive to the Giants, and to Judge. It's also slanderous without proof. Edit: Or this little gem, where he conveniently buries the lead about Judge being in charge of a record setting ST unit the past five years: This bothers me.

I get it, and I may definitely be wrong. Just seems like there isn't a way to fix it without making it about skin color. I do like the idea of finding out what we can do at the lower levels to promote coaching to all races, and opening doors to everyone that are truly equal and without bias.

I guess I just don't see any way to fix that... Bieneimy interviewed at least two places I read, Saleh is occupied with the playoffs (and it is known that teams dont like to wait, if possible) and Richard probably got hung up with the issues in Dallas (both in season, and the ***** show since then). But I know you aren't holding them up as the only examples. My issue with it is why do we even look at the skin color either way? For every first time coaching hire there are probably 10-20 other guys who arguably could have been equally good choices - black, white, Hispanic, etc. The real issue is that only about 3-5 guys get interviewed for each opening, so when a minority gets passed over, they're on a list of about 10 other guys who got passed over as well. For everyone making a big deal about Bieneimy not getting hired, there's a Greg Roman, Brian Daboll, etc. I disagree about not letting the market fix itself. I think the more we try to fix problems, the more we come up with stuff like the RR the less it works. If team owners want to succeed, they need to go off the beaten path and find something that works. If they're resistant of that, they wont succeed, they'll fail, and the market will correct that. I don't think there's a way to legislate a fixture of this without there being a clear and present example of racism in hiring practices that is preventing minorities from getting jobs. It's worth mentioning, I think, that the two worst run organizations in the League (at least I would argue), the Redskins and Bengals, have had, during their time of incompetence, minority representation in the highest parts of the team (Marvin Lewis in Cin, Doug WIlliams in WSH - off the top of my head) and yet they are seen as the least progressive organizations. I think the reality is (as Biscuit and I were discussing up thread) that race has little to do with the owners not being willing to innovate and hire the best person for the job- or dare I even say, interview more than 4 dudes for the job. I'm not sure, I would assume someone somewhere has... But I don't know. I also don't think position matters all that much in the grand scheme of things as most guys are coaches because their understanding of the game transcended their experience from playing.

I would think it would have to be quite a low contract. Between his injury history, and the fact that Shanahan could make me look like a stud RB in that offense, I can't imagine his value is very high.

Random UFA to think about as just another piece of the puzzle: Matt Breida. He brings a one cut, speed element that differs from Motor. him plus someone like AJ Dillon and we'd have a pretty diverse group.

It's true. Unfortunately most of the world works that way. Whatever our bias' are, we hold onto what's familiar and we don't diversify - not racially, intellectually, culturally, etc. The problem, and maybe my beef with the heart behind the RR, is that very rarely can any form of diversity or innovation be legislated. It has to come from those willing to think outside the box. That has been a nice development with some of the offensive schemes we've seen getting time and attention- there seems to be a willingness to begin the process of innovation, it just needs to continue to grow.