MrEpsYtown

I think this is a fair question. For me, using an extra tackle is just a little different. While he reports as eligible on plays, there's very little chance he goes out for a pass and teams largely ignore these guys, which gives them an extra guy to play the run. In the rare situation where the guy goes out for a pass, defenses just leave him and eat the play. While Lee Smith is not much of a receiver, you have to cover him and defend him as a true tight end. He is running routes in practice and catching balls all of the time. He is trained in all of the nuances of the game, which is not something a tackle eligible player will have. This is likely where the Jake Fisher experiment failed. He's been kicksteping for the last 8 years, not running routes and catching balls. There is simply not enough practice time for a guy to train as a tackle and a tight end. The tight end is also used to moving around the formation and being out in space and blocking from off the line. I guess my point is that even though the blocking tight end is not much of a threat in the pass game, he is a much higher threat than any tackle eligible player. Defenses have to respect him. That's just my 2 cents.

Fisher release makes sense. Lee Smith is pretty much what one would hope Fisher could develop into. I was excited about Fisher, but the release makes sense.

This is also a Bobby Johnson connection. He was the Raiders tight ends coach when they signed Lee Smith as a free agent, and was his coach 2015-2017.

I compare this to the Derek Anderson addition last year. I think you are adding a veteran who plays his butt off to a room full of young guys. I think he is a very limited player, but I think is a addition will be huge for the tight end room imo, especially in terms of teh development of Dawson Knox. Smith is basically what we hope Fisher could become. I'm interested to see the guaranteed money here.

With his size and length he would not project there. However, he does have a lot of speed off the snap. I don't envision this scenario happening, but I could see him rushing from other positions in sub packages. Oliver was born to be a three technique though.

Not a great list. The most interesting guy is AJ Derby who was originally drafted by the Patriots and spent some time with Brian Daboll there. He has some upside as a receiver but not much of a blocker. A guy who is a free agent but is technically a fullback is Ryan Hewitt, former Colt and Bengal. I like the fact that Hewitt doubles as a tight end and a fullback. It gives the offense a good amount flexibilty and you don't have to keep a dedicated fullback on the roster. Another guy out there who can serve multiple roles is Dan Vitale, who the Bills claimed and released a few years ago. Vitale was a superback for Northwestern in college. He can catch, block, and run the ball and can double as a tight end. Vitale ran a 4.6 at the combine. He's bounced around the league, but there is a lot of upside there imo.

Johnson is a large human being.

I will add, that I do not believe in #1,2,3 receivers in the E-P system. I think all of that is garbage. I believe that receivers should have roles because the offense requires complimentary pieces. To me Brown, Beasley, and Foster have pretty clear roles. I'm interested to see how it plays out with Zay, Sills, Williams, and Easley. Josh Allen is the offensive star of this team. The guys who can get where they need to be and catch the ball when it is thrown to them are the guys who are going to make the team.

I hear you, but there is a value in having a guy like Brown on the field even if he isn't getting catches, and that is the element of speed and taking the top off the defense. I think the goal this year is going to have Foster and Brown on the outside and Beasley and the tight ends and backs working underneath routes. To me that doesn't mean Brown or Foster are number 1 guys, just that they are the outside guys bringing the speed element. Also, what stands out to me, is that in John Brown's zero catch game last season, Brown played just 53% of the offensive snaps. Zay was in 95% of his. My point is that Brown has been mostly a specialist for most of his career, and I'm more willing to accept a zero catch game from a guy like Brown because of that. You are right that people are expecting a little bit too much from Brown. He is not teh receiver that many are making him out to be. But I will say that Zay's production, for a guy who has been on the field as much as he has, is mediocre. Check out the game by game data I posted a page or two back.

I hope everyone got a chance to look at this data.

I've been saying it for awhile, but a guy like Sills and a lesser extent Knox, guys like that are smart receivers who have a great understanding of what defenses are trying to do because they have a strong background as quarterbacks. Sills did such a great job of putting himself where he thought the quarterback would want him to be. It's one of the reason guys like Edelman, Trey Burton etc have been so successful. Sills is going to make this team.

I think Sills and Easley make the final roster. They are refined receivers who are very good at their craft and they catch the ball. They also have talent. I think Easley would be a backup slot and Sills is a guy who can play the slot or the outside. Easley has some elite quickness number and produced in a pro style offense. He's potentially a bigger Beasley. Easley just needs to beat out McKenzie and Ray Ray, and I think he has a great chance to do so. Sills is in for a fight but he's a guy who finds the endzone and makes contested catches. He and Duke Williams bring that element to the roster, an element that was missing last year. I don't think Ike Boettger or Wyatt Teller would make it through to the practice squad. Ike was claimed last year, and now he has a year under his belt and some game experience. I don't think Boettger makes teh roster, but he will be claimed. I also think Sweeney makes the roster over guys like Croom and Fisher because he projects to be a complete tight end. Though I am intrigued with the Fisher conversion. Jaquan Johnson will make the roster as well imo. So right now I'd say Daryll Johnson and Tyree Jackson are the most likely PS guys. yrel Dodson is pretty interesting as well.

Shane Ray is the most obvious move. Still young, still a lot of upside. He has a ton of speed, a super quick first step and plays with a motor. The dude can play. If his wrist is okay, I could envision him actually replacing Jerry down the line. I think Ray would be a great fit in our scheme, and all the places he's visited, Ravens, Seattle, Raiders, all either signed or drafted edge players, so his market may be a bit dry. I'm not sure if he got in Vance Joseph's doghouse or what, but he really didn't get the same opportunities he got a few years atom when he had a bunch of sacks. Ray can get to the quarterback and adds a good amount of speed and athleticism to the defensive line room.

God that guy sucked. Terrible freaking Rex guy.

Here you go @Rc2catch ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️

Thank you. I think the dissappearing act is the issue. You can't be a number 2-3 receiver in the NFL and have zero catch games, or 3 catches for twenty yards.

It took a while to put all of this together, so I do hope people read through it and don’t just cherry pick or point out my typos. The following is a game by game analysis of Zay’s performance for 2018.I tried to keep bias out and simply present the information, and the timing of Zay’s performances… at what points in games is he producing etc. All in all he had three good games, the Barkley Jets game and the Miami games. I’m not sure if the info here answers the garbage time question, but I did the best I could. Game 1 vs Ravens (Ravens win 47-3) - Zay played 60/64 offensive snaps and had 3 catches for 26 yards on six targets. His first catch came with 13 minutes left in the 4th quarter. The score at that point was 40-6 Ravens. Game 2 vs Chargers (Chargers win 31-20) - Zay played 51/62 snaps and had 2 catches for 63 yards on three targets. One of them was a 57 yard Josh Allen bomb that he juggled and double caught. His first catch came with 10 minutes left in the second quarter. The score at that point was 21-3. The 57 yard catch came with about a minute left in the half. He made a nice a adjustment on that deep ball, but if he catches it clean, he should score (this is where RAC comes in). Anyway it led to a field goal. Zay did nothing else the rest of the game to aid the valiant comeback attempt. Game 3 vs Vikings (Bills win! 27-6) Zay played 42/67 snaps and had 1 catch for 17 yards on 1 target. This came with 3:53 left in the third quarter on a 3rd and 25 with the Bills already up 27-0. Xavier Rhodes was covering KB. Game 4 vs Packers (Pack wins 22-0) Zay played 53/58 snaps and had 4 catches for 38 yards on 7 targets. His first catch came with 6:02 left in the fourth quarter with Green Bay already leading 19-0. He had three more catches. Game 5 vs Tennessee (Bills win 13-12) Zay played 50/65 offensive snaps and had 3 catches for 20 yards on 4 targets. His first catch came in the first quarter on the first drive. On that same drive he had a three yard catch converting a critical 3rd and 2. His next and last reception of the game came in the 4th quarter with 9 minutes left in the game with the Bills leading 10-9. Game 6 vs Houston (Texans win 20-13) Zay played in 58/62 offensive snaps and had 3 catches for 38 yards on 8 targets. And his first TD of the year. His first catch came with 2:53 seconds left in the third quarter with the score 10-3 Texans. He scored his first TD of the year with Peterman in and made a really good catch, making the score 13-10 Buffalo. Game 7 vs Indy (Colts killed us 37-5) Zay played in 51/56 snaps and had 3 catches for 27 yards on 5 targets. His first catch came early in the first with no score. Derek Anderson started this game. Game 8 vs NE (Cheats won 25-6) Zay played in 60/64 snaps and had 6 catches for 55 yards on 8 targets. His first catch was made early in the first quarter. And made 5 more catches dispersed through the game. Game 9 vs Chicago (Bears killed us 41-9 in a game Peterman started) Zay played in 79/91 snaps. He had 4 catches for 18 yards on 6 targets. Zay made his first catch early in the game. He did not make another catch until the third period at which point the score was 28-0 Bears. Game 10 vs Jets (Bills kill them 41-10 with Matt Barkley starting) Zay played in 62/73 snaps. Zay had 8 catches for 93 yards on 11 targets. He also scored his 2nd touchdown of the year. His first catch came late in the first quarter on a critical red zone third down. He got the first down and fumbled the ball trying to score. Jason Croom recovered for the touchdown. That score made it 14-0 Bills. Zay’s touchdown came at the end of the third quarter, putting the Bills up 38-10. Game 11 vs Jacksonville (Bills win a huge game 24-21 after the bye and the return of Josh Allen) Zay played in 55/58 snaps. Zay had 0 catches for 0 yards on 1 target. Just to be fair, Josh Allen only completed 8 of 19 passes. He ran all over the Jags. Game 12 vs Miami (Dolphins win 21-17 in the Charles Clay drop game) Zay played in 66/72 snaps. Zay had 4 catches for 67 yards on 9 targets. He also scored 2 touchdowns. Zay’s first catch came in the second quarter and was a touchdown, tying the game at 7. Zay also scored the touchdown and 2 point conversion that put the Bills up 17-14 in the fourth quarter. He also dropped a critical pass (ruled a catch and overturned) which would have given the Bills a first down inside the 10 with a chance to win with 54 seconds left a few plays before the Clay Hail Mary. Game 13 vs Jets (Jets win 27-23) Zay played in 69/76 plays. He had 3 catches for 22 yards on 9 targets. That’s a pretty crazy stat line. This was the first non Kelvin Benjamin game, but I’m not sure that Zay’s role changed very much as Robert Foster had more snap counts. Zay had two early catches and then did not have another one until the 4th quarter. Game 14 vs Detroit (Bills win 14-13) Zay played in 66/68 snaps. He had 1 catch for 11 yards on 6 targets. His first and only catch of the game came at the end of the first quarter and there was no score. He did get a pass interference call in the 4th that led to the winning touchdown. Game 15 vs NE (Cheats win 24-12) Zay played in 61/61 snaps (100%). He had 5 catches for 67 yards on 9 targets and had 1 touchdown. All of his catches came in the fourth quarter with the score 24-6. His first catch came with 4:37 left in the 4th quarter and the Patriots up 24-6. On the next offensive possession with the Pats up 24-6 and 3 minutes left, Zay had 5 more catches and his touchdown with 1:17 left in the game, making it 24-12. Game 16 vs Miami (Bills kill them 42-17) Zay played in 58/62 snaps. He had 6 catches for 93 yards on 9 targets. He also scored 2 touchdowns. His first touchdown came in the first quarter and put the Bills up 14-0. His second touchdown came mid 4th quarter when the Bills were leading 35-17. Thoughts?

This is where I am at too. At the very least he gives you some serious speed off the edge in wide nine and nickel situations. .

I think it's interesting that he talks about how having a chip on his shoulder helped motivate him. I also think it's interesting that some people on here claim that this is not a real thing and just a sports cliche. So I guess Sweeney is full of it.

I hear you 100%. I agree with your points. I don't think he has made any great plays, but a handful of pretty good plays. In the opportunities he has had to make great plays, he has failed miserably. I am simply saying, and I think Alpha is saying, that there is a chance that one of these guys like Duke or Sills could push Zay off the roster because they have the potential to do everything that he can do, and more. That is kind of where I am at. If Zay shows up as the guy he was at ECU, those other guys have no shot, because the potential is there. But if he is what he is, I could very easily see Sills or Williams giving us 2-3 production, with the ability to make contested catches and red zone size as well. .

But how can you argue against what the dude has actually shown on film? I don't think what he has shown on film is about bias at all. I think he showed that he was a great playmaker in college and has shown none of that ability in the NFL. How can you argue against what is on video? I agree Shaw, I was just trying to explain why the thread is 38 pages. It is all very repetitive.

Somebody answered all of this in this thread somewhere and it was compelling information about how Zay's touchdowns and productions were coming in blowout losses or victories in which games were out of hand. They did a much better job of explaining it than I could ever do.

But just to add, I don't really understand the positive arguments for Zay. Most people are saying Eric Moulds took a while to develop so we need to give Zay time. This is a meaningless comparison. Other are saying he showed great improvement statistically. This is also meaningless. Stats came in garbage time and stats are just stats. Turds like Charles Johnson and Ashley Lelie had 1000 yard seasons. The numbers didn't tell you they sucked. (see I can cherry pick too) I don't think either if those arguments are really valid. Both are reaching. The only positive, and I have argued this in the thread on Zay's behalf, is that he showed tremendous potential in college and he hasn't shown any of that in the NFL. So I believe there may be some untapped talent there. His highlight film in college he looks like a completely different guy. Arguments against is that so far in his career: he has trouble catching the ball (which is the main part of his job), he gets no separation, has no RAC ability, has no ability to make contested catches, and cannot be counted on when the games count. To me that is the eye test, it is what he has actually shown the the field. And that is the big fat turd burger. Nobody can argue against these points. They are facts.

Definitely! this is true on both sides imo. I was trying to be clever.

In the pictures of the guys at the children's hospital on the Bills website, John Brown is wearing 2, and Andre Roberts is wearing 8. Obviously those will change. Morse again was wearing 60, Fisher 84 looking very big, Spain 67 also looking massive, and Waddle 74, and Feliciano 76 with a man bun.