BuffaloRush

There's goes a potential candidate as OC in 2018

I don't think these are good candidates. Both went on to have very good careers with other teams

Over the past 17 years of very bad moments and sometimes equally bad players, it me wonder who was the best Bills player that should have received more fame and notoriety, but instead get overlooked given the Bills dreadful performance over the past 19 years. Here's a few options: Eric Moulds Eric played in the Bills two playoffs games but the majority of his career was spent in Buffalo during the drought era. His numbers are stellars when he had a decent QB (Bledsoe and/or Flutie) and still had good numbers with bad QB's. It always made me wonder what Moulds could have done in a good offense with a top QB. I think he could have been a household name - he had some serious athletic ability. Lee Evans I think that Lee was a very underrated receiver. He played nearly his entire career in Buffalo with some very bad QB's and yet he was still very productive. Like Moulds above, I always wondered what could have been if Lee was on a team with a good QB. Aaron Schobel Schobel was one of the NFL most productive edge rushers for a few seasons in the mid 2000's but hardly anyone paid attention to him in the Buffalo market. It seemed like that could have gotten to later on his career, as it appeared he was mailing it in. But still a great pass rushers in his day. Fred Jackson Bills fans all know Fred's story. A leader at RB who had great ability and excellent in all three facets of playing the position - running, catching, and blocking. Fred was very productive on some atrocious teams and never really seemed to get attention in the league until the Patriots victory in 2011. Kyle Williams Another players that doesn't get enough credit playing on a very bad football team. While his best days are behind him, at one time you could make the argument that Kyle was one of the top performers at the position in a 4-3 defense. Those are my choices - how about yours?

So in a way by saying "Tyrod is who he is" you are kind of proving my point. Your point about the front office very valid. If they weren't going to design an offense around him, they probably should have turned the page. This wasn't a move defending Peterman. I don't think he's the answer. I'm just saying, Tyrod has been very ineffective. The decision to consider starting another QB isn't as absurd as some made it out to be. Why do you think it got worn down?

McDermott said "I am personally offended" and then Bill said "It was bull ****. I understand. My fault." Not sure what else he could have done

You have a QB that struggles to throw for 100 yards. I don't blame them for considering a change - though it was the wrong call. For that, I think the national pundits are wrong.

Right - this is what the national guys IMO are missing. As Bills fans, we've seen this too many times with Tyrod

Agreed...that's why I hope that Dennison is out at the end of the year. If the Bills draft a QB, for right or wrong, McDermott and Beane will ride or die with that player and the coaching staff they put around him. If they draft an EJ Manuel, they'll both be gone in 3 or 4 years like Doug Whaley. Do you really trust Dennison?

Except he won't because there's no argument. Does anyone disagree that Tyrod, injured or not, cost the Bills the game?

Maybe you didn't read what I said. I said it was the wrong decision and the Bills fans should be concerned over decisions today. That doesn't take away the fact that Tyrod cost the Bills the game today. I said, their narrative they were spinning was incorrect and interesting enough, neither one commented on how Tyrod held back the team today

First off, let me say that I like Tyrod Taylor. I think he's an incredible athlete and his worth-ethic sounds like it's top notch. More importantly, he appears to be a great leader that has tremendous integrity. I wanted to things to work out for Tyrod this season more than anyone but, today's game showed you why he's not the right quarterback for the Bills. At least, not with the current coaching staff in place. What bothers me is the national narrative spun by many NFL writers who, more than likely, pay sparingly attention to the Buffalo Bills. Guys like John Clayton, Cian Farley, and Bill Barnwell were up in arms that McDermott benched Taylor for Peterman. It's clear it was not the right move, as Peterman was for from ready to start in the NFL. In hindsight, it was the wrong decision. That should definitely give Bills fans a cause for concern with McDermott and Dennison's decision making especially. Still, the national reports made it sound like it was an absolutely idiotic decision by McDermott before the San Diego game. Barnwell, speaking with much hubris, spoke down to Bills fans about why the move was absurd. Not sure who, but I know one of the national writers placed the race when discussing the situation and I found that to be unfair. However, play like today is exactly the reason why that decision was made. Today's game played out much like the outings versus Carolina and Cincy. The defense holds a high-powered offense like New England to 23 points and the Bills can manage only 3 points. Maybe he was injured and his knee was a heavy factor, but Tyrod really hurt the offense today. He was ineffective and when you watch his throws, he took very few shots downfield and settled for short passes. The Bills fell behind by almost two touchdowns and you automatically knew it was over. Maybe if you design the offense around Taylor's skillset, it's a different story. But today's game showed exactly why Tyrod Taylor is not good enough as QB. Also after the Barnwell's and the Farley's devote so much time defending Tyrod, they were radio silent after his performance today. Gee I wonder why???

How anyone can say that Whaley had "good" drafts is beyond me. As Assistant GM, you can say that Whaley helped to scout and draft some players that developed into All-Pros. But the list below is not much of a resume builder. As someone else stated, he has draft ZERO Pro Bowl selections in 3 drafts - not good. Even the Marv Levy/Dick Jauron era produced better. His best picks were guys like Ronald Darby in the 2nd or Preston Brown in the 3rd. Darby is an NFL starter but hardly a top star and Brown is average at best. The trade for Sammy backfired and while he has been a good WR when healthy, they completely overspend on him. The draft IMO is where you can really fault Whaley. Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 2016 1 Shaq Lawson 19 DE 2017 0 0 1 1 20 5.0 Clemson 2016 2 Reggie Ragland 41 ILB 2017 0 0 0 0 8 Alabama 2016 3 Adolphus Washington 80 DT 2017 0 0 1 4 25 2.5 Ohio St. 2016 4 Cardale Jones 139 QB 2016 0 0 0 0 1 6 11 96 0 1 1 -1 0 Ohio St. 2016 5 Jonathan Williams 156 RB 2016 0 0 0 1 11 0 1 0 0 0 27 94 1 1 0 0 Arkansas 2016 6 Kolby Listenbee 192 WR 0 0 0 TCU 2016 6 Kevon Seymour 218 CB 2017 0 0 0 1 26 USC Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 2015 2 Ronald Darby 50 CB 2017 0 0 2 10 32 3 Florida St. 2015 3 John Miller 81 G 2017 0 0 2 13 32 Louisville 2015 5 Karlos Williams 155 RB 2015 0 0 0 4 11 93 517 7 11 96 2 Florida St. 2015 6 Tony Steward 188 OLB 2015 0 0 0 1 7 Clemson 2015 6 Nick O'Leary 194 TE 2017 0 0 0 1 31 28 405 1 Florida St. 2015 7 Dezmin Lewis 234 WR 2016 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 Central Arkansas Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 2014 1 Sammy Watkins 4 WR 2017 0 0 4 20 48 3 9 0 181 2949 22 Clemson 2014 2 Cyrus Kouandjio 44 T 2017 0 0 0 6 26 Alabama 2014 3 Preston Brown 73 LB 2017 0 0 4 23 59 3 1.0 Louisville 2014 4 Ross Cockrell 109 DB 2017 0 0 1 11 49 2 Duke 2014 5 Cyril Richardson 153 G 2014 0 0 0 2 12 Baylor 2014 7 Randell Johnson 221 LB 2016 0 0 0 2 16 Florida Atlantic

I think you are glossing over Doug's draft record - it leaves a lot to be desired

100% serious. If you read the initial post, that's why I'm asking the question. The second Doug's name is brought up on posts, people have a very strong reaction one way or another. There's people associated with the Bills that we unanimously love or despise. But Doug has to be one of the most polarizing personalities in Bills history

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM. Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him. It's been like this way for quite some time. I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired. I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate. So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager. Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal. Here's a few things to consider: Positives: - Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan) - Good at signing street free agents - Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel) - Found players to fit in coaches scheme - Wanted to win NOW Negatives - A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2) - Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual - Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc) - Reckless with salary cap - Neglected QB position for years - Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone) - Took chances on guys with "character issues" My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could. In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him. Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM. We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

We all agree that Dennison's offense is conservative and yes...uninspiring. We don't truly know what McDermott's feeling is about the offense. It's very possible that McDermott shares the same offensive philosophy as Dennison. If that's the case, we can forget about every getting a young coordinator in here with new ideas. We're going to be stuck with the old tired West Coast offense from 20 years for the next few years...or until McDermott himself gets fired. Someone here was correct - they said that Dennision basically "Rex Ryan'ed" the offense. He took a group of players that were average pass blockers and good run blockers, and made them below average in both areas. The personnel just doesn't seem to fit what he wants. In the end, McDermott's job could depend on how he handled the OC position

It's worth a shot. I hear things like this that McDermott is trying and I kind of like it. Of course, I feel that the end result has more to do with the talent assembled on the field than through these activities, but still good on him. It makes you feel a bit more optimistic for the future

Thanks for your insight Shaw. I do remember you from the old BBMB and I believe you were pretty cool. But to share the other perspective, I felt that many of the mods at the BBMB absolutely abused their power. Someone here mentioned how they got off on being an "administrator" of a message board and I completely agree. The worst ones were WYO and T & C. What bothered me was getting infractions/banned for being critical of the Bills. Because I had the audacity to say that I thought Ralph Wilson was a terrible owner the day that he hired Dick Jauron, I was banned. Give me a break. I also was also infracted for getting into it with other members. The problem is, I never started anything - I only reacted and of course I was the only one who was punished. What drove me crazy is that there were members who got a free pass to name call and mess with other members - Diesel USMC comes to mind. He could take shots at anyone but the second you responded, YOU were one getting infractions. Eventually I'd come back under different names. Until old T & C must have blacklisted me. As far as T &C, real talk here... I found hims to be a vindictive and overall sad individual. 100%. After he gave me dumb infractions, I was banned and he must have searched the new members day and night to make sure I didn't create a new account because every time I tried adding a post, I'd get the message that T & C banned me - reason: PBU. The funny thing is, shortly after the BBMB closed down, members fled here or to another Bills message board (whose name escapes me). T & C was actually a regular member of that board. I remember telling him that I thought he abused his power on the BBMB. He seemed like a broken and downtrodden man - like the one thing he enjoyed most in life was taken away from him. To his credit he did kind of apologize and never denied any of the claims that I made. He just seemed a bit overzealous. In any event, I am thrilled to be here at Two Bills Drive. Everyone here has been cool and Scott has been the most helpful. Good Riddance BBMB - we're in a much better place

LOL you mean T & C? Yeah I remember getting an infractions for doing absolutely nothing. I like it here quite a bit. People have been super cool for the most part. Always good chatting with Bills fans

Who was the mod? It was my understanding that the BBMB was pretty much operated with little interference from within the organization. I didn't think the mods had any real dialogue with any Bills employees. That's why I don't even think Berchtold even knew about it

Well yeah I know. There are a lot of people here from the old board and I'm sure some mods as well. It seems like being a BBMB moderator is like being in a secret society like the Stone Cutters. You never hear anything about it

Any draft pick is a 50/50 chance. Flip a coin on whether he'd be a success

It's been quite some time since the Buffalo Bills Message Board was shut down. In fact, that's how I landed here. My question is - how did it all go down. From my understanding the moderators were all volunteers and the head moderator was named Z-man. How they became moderators and who made them moderators? I have no idea. I believe that Chris Brown oversaw the BBMB at one time but had very limited involvement with it. From what I can surmise, the board went down very shortly after Derek Boyko was hired. So my guess is that he evaluated the website and decided the website had to go. Clearly this was one area that Scott Berchtold must have not really paid much attention to. All I know is that one day, I went to log in and then there was a message that it was gone. Here are my questions: - Who was from the Bills organization was responsible for the BBMB? - Who picked the moderators? - Did anyone from the Bills even know or care that the BBMB existed? - Who were the moderators exactly? - How did the death of the BBMB occur and why was the decision made? -Who made the call and how were the moderators notified? So many questions - but hopefully with the knowledge of this board we can get some answers. I am really loving Two Bills Drive by the way. Way better people and better conversation overall

Ugh very good point. Dennison is terrible and I can't see his offense succeeding in 2017 Tried to embed the audio player from the site. Didn't work

That was his best game of the season. IMO I think that 1st round picks have to be very good players and solid contributors on your defense. You said if Shaq was a "serviceable starter" you think Whaley did good? I hold 1st round picks to a higher standard. Of course, the draft is a crap shoot but you have to hit your high draft picks and Whaley did not do this. You can find serviceable starters in the mid-round of the draft or in free agency. But if your 1st round picks aren't going to be better than serviceable, you're likely a 6-10 team which is what the Bills have been