BuffaloRush

You are crazy....here's the deal. You have an argument about Moran and Stevens. Bottom line is that Stevens started 11 games during his season with the team and played well. Moran was marginal at best but he did start occassionally with the team and provided depth. I will agree, I thought Lonnie was a bad pick due to his 2nd draft status but look at his numbers. His stats would put him in the middle of the league for starting TE's. Games Receiving Rushing Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Ctch% Rush Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G YScm RRTD Fmb AV 1994 23 BUF te 84 10 1 4 3 42 14.0 0 21 0.3 4.2 75.0% 42 0 0 0 1995 24 BUF TE 84 16 16 81 49 504 10.3 1 52 3.1 31.5 60.5% 504 1 0 5 1996 25 BUF TE 84 16 15 79 46 457 9.9 0 33 2.9 28.6 58.2% 457 0 1 3 1997 26 BUF TE 84 16 16 63 41 340 8.3 2 62 2.6 21.3 65.1% 1 6 0 6 6.0 0.4 0.1 346 2 2 3 1998 27 BUF TE 84 16 16 22 14 146 10.4 2 27 0.9 9.1 63.6% 146 2 1 Still lets say those three players are changed to misses. Butler still had a lot of good draft picks. Because he was the GM in title

After a short break - I am back. It's one of the most talked about threads on the board - Hits and Misses. This thread will analyze for Bills GM John Butler. A few reminders about this thread: * While this is very subjective, I am defining a "hit" as any player that reasonably performed at or above his draft status. As an example, a player like Paul Pozlusny becoming a solid starting LB as a 2nd round pick. A "miss" is the opposite - a player who performed under or well under their draft status. * If you draft a player in the first round and they are a marginal starter, I am defining that as a miss. * Also, if a player doesn't have a great career for the Bills, but then has a better career on another team that is not a miss in my opinion. We are dealing strictly on what the draft selections brought to the table for the Bills - not another team. Let's now discuss GM John Butler who alongside with Polian is likely the most successful (and perhaps the only successful) GM in Bills history. How did Butler do in the draft? Take a second and read below. But before you do - here's my take on the success of other GM's 1. Russ Brandon: 28% 2. Marv Levy: 25% 3. Buddy Nix: 25% 4. Bill Polian: 23% Now there's a lot of drafts JB ran, so I'm going to keep the comments brief until the end. Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1992 1 John Fina 27 T 2002 0 0 8 50 155 1 -2 0 1 1 1 Arizona 1992 2 James Patton 55 NT 1994 0 0 0 1 13 Texas 1992 3 Keith Goganious 83 LB 1996 0 0 2 13 74 2 1.0 Penn St. 1992 4 Frank Kmet 111 DE 0 0 0 Purdue 1992 5 Matt Darby 139 DB 1997 0 0 3 18 81 8 UCLA 1992 6 Nate Turner 167 TE 1995 0 0 0 0 28 13 40 0 1 26 1 Nebraska 1992 7 Kurt Schulz 195 DB 2001 0 0 6 43 129 30 East. Washington 1992 8 Leonard Humphries 223 DB 1994 0 0 0 1 13 1 Penn St. 1992 9 Chris Walsh 251 WR 2002 0 0 0 7 139 0 1 0 0 0 67 719 4 Stanford 1992 10 Barry Rose 279 WR 1993 0 0 0 0 3 Wisc-Stevens Point 1992 11 Vince Marrow 307 TE 1994 0 0 0 0 10 5 44 0 Toledo 1992 12 Matt Rodgers 335 QB 0 0 0 Iowa 1992 Draft This was JB's first attempt at running a draft as GM, and he did ok. John Fina was never an All-Pro but was a competent LT who ended up starting nearly 10 seasons and remained injury free. Darby was a fringe starter for a few years and Kurt Schultz was a solid select. Of course, James Patton and Keith Goganious didn't pan out, but still not bad. Hits: 3 Misses: 9 Success: 33% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1993 1 Thomas Smith 28 DB 2001 0 0 7 43 137 6 North Carolina 1993 2 John Parrella 55 DT 2004 0 0 6 46 172 26.5 Nebraska 1993 4 Russell Copeland 111 WR 1998 0 0 1 13 72 2 -8 0 103 1460 2 Memphis 1993 5 Mike Devlin 136 C 1999 0 0 2 15 101 Iowa 1993 5 Sebastian Savage 139 DB 1995 0 0 0 0 3 North Carolina St. 1993 6 Corbin Lacina 167 G 2003 0 0 6 38 129 Augustana (SD) 1993 7 Willie Harris 195 WR 0 0 0 Mississippi St. 1993 8 Chris Luneberg 223 T 0 0 0 West Chester 1993 Draft A bit shaky. He hit on his first pick with Thomas Smith who performed well-enough for a late 1st round pick. Though he was never a star. Mid to late picks like Russell Copeland or Corbin Lacina turned out to be short-term starters but were good value for their draft status. John Parrella had a solid career for San Diego but he did nothing with the Blls. Miss. Hits: 3 Misses: 5 Success 38% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1994 1 Jeff Burris 27 DB 2003 0 0 9 41 144 19 5.0 Notre Dame 1994 2 Bucky Brooks 48 DB 1998 0 0 0 1 32 0 0 0 North Carolina 1994 2 Lonnie Johnson 61 TE 1999 0 0 4 13 88 1 6 0 163 1587 6 Florida St. 1994 2 Sam Rogers 64 LB 2003 0 0 6 41 133 2 30.0 Colorado 1994 3 Marlo Perry 81 LB 1999 0 0 1 11 76 2 1.5 Jackson St. 1994 3 Corey Louchiey 98 T 1997 0 0 0 8 45 1 0 0 South Carolina 1994 4 Sean Crocker 130 DB 0 0 0 North Carolina 1994 5 A.J. Ofodile 158 TE 1999 0 0 0 0 24 4 25 0 Missouri 1994 6 Anthony Abrams 188 DE 0 0 0 1994 6 Kevin Knox 192 WR 1994 0 0 0 0 2 Florida St. 1994 7 Filmel Johnson 221 DB 1995 0 0 0 0 2 Illinois 1994 Draft The good news is that Butler hit toward the top of the draft. The bad news is he's attached to one of the worst draft picks in Bills history - Bucky Brooks. The WR who caught 0 passes. Burris, like Thomas Smith, was a competent starter. Ditto for Sam Rogers. Lonnie Johnson was never a star but his numbers are way better than I remember. Perry stuck on the team for 6 season and was a great fringe starter and ST player. Hits: 4 Misses: 7 Legendary Misses: 1 Success: 36% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1995 1 Ruben Brown 14 G 2007 0 9 13 80 181 1 -6 0 Pittsburgh 1995 2 Todd Collins 45 QB 2010 0 0 1 11 50 391 701 4547 22 24 83 152 0 Michigan 1995 3 Marlon Kerner 76 DB 1998 0 0 0 7 43 3 1.0 Ohio St. 1995 3 Damien Covington 96 LB 1997 0 0 1 6 30 1 0.5 North Carolina St. 1995 4 Ken Irvin 109 DB 2005 0 0 3 32 147 10 2.0 Memphis 1995 4 Justin Armour 113 WR 1999 0 0 1 7 39 0 1 0 0 0 4 -5 0 64 861 7 Stanford 1995 4 Tony Cline 131 TE 1999 0 0 1 2 52 32 255 1 Stanford 1995 5 John Holecek 144 LB 2002 0 0 3 27 81 2 3.5 Illinois 1995 6 Shannon Clavelle 185 DE 1997 0 0 0 1 16 0.5 Colorado 1995 7 Tom Nutten 221 G 2005 0 0 4 37 78 West. Michigan 1995 7 Darick Holmes 244 RB 1999 0 0 0 16 60 478 1769 11 73 610 1 Portland St. 1995 Draft Butler hit big with Rueben Brown. He whiffed big time on drafting Kelly's successor but did have some very good late round success. Hits: 4 Misses: 7 Success: 36% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1996 1 Eric Moulds 24 WR 2007 0 3 11 76 186 29 163 0 764 9995 49 Mississippi St. 1996 2 Gabe Northern 53 LB 2000 0 0 2 19 73 1 10.5 LSU 1996 3 Matt Stevens 87 DB 2003 0 0 2 24 108 13 1.0 Appalachian St. 1996 4 Sean Moran 120 LB 2003 0 0 0 12 120 2 10.5 Colorado St. 1996 5 Raymond Jackson 156 DB 2001 0 0 0 5 73 0 0 0 6 Colorado St. 1996 6 Leon Neal 196 RB 1997 0 0 0 0 1 Washington 1996 6 Dusty Zeigler 202 C 2002 0 0 5 34 80 Notre Dame 1996 7 Dan Brandenburg 237 LB 1999 0 0 0 3 42 Indiana St. 1996 7 Jay Riemersma 244 TE 2004 0 0 3 19 112 221 2524 23 Michigan 1996 7 Eric Smedley 249 DB 1999 0 0 0 3 42 2.0 1996 Draft Now we are talking - Some great picks and starters both at the top and bottom. Butler's best draft Hits: 6 Misses: 4 Success: 60% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1997 1 Antowain Smith 23 RB 2005 0 0 4 49 131 1784 6881 54 136 982 3 Houston 1997 2 Marcellus Wiley 52 DE 2006 0 1 5 43 147 2 44.0 Columbia 1997 4 Jamie Nails 120 G 2003 0 0 3 26 78 Florida A&M 1997 5 Sean Woodson 153 DB 0 0 0 Jackson St. 1997 6 Marcus Spriggs 185 T 2003 0 0 0 11 49 Houston 1997 7 Pat Fitzgerald 226 TE 0 0 0 Texas 1997 Draft Not many picks here but he did hit big with Marcellus Wiley and had a fews borderline hit with fringe starters like late round picks Jamie Nails and Marcus Spriggs. Antowain Smith was a decent RB but I will argue he did not warrant a first round pick. Hits 3 Misses 3 Success: 50% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1998 2 Sam Cowart 39 LB 2005 0 1 5 44 100 4 12.5 Florida St. 1998 3 Robert Hicks 68 T 2000 0 0 1 13 37 1 -2 0 1 -6 0 Mississippi St. 1998 5 Jonathan Linton 131 RB 2000 0 0 0 9 44 288 1002 6 33 246 2 North Carolina 1998 6 Fred Coleman 160 WR 2002 0 0 0 1 9 2 50 0 Washington 1998 7 Victor Allotey 198 G 0 0 0 Indiana 1998 7 Kamil Loud 238 WR 1999 0 0 0 1 12 6 66 0 Cal Poly-San Luis Obisp 1998 Draft No first round pick but Butler had a lot of success with his first few selections. Hicks and Linton proved to be solid contributors and part-time starters for mid-round picks Hits 3 Misses 3 Success: 50% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 1999 1 Antoine Winfield 23 DB 2012 0 3 11 63 191 27 7.5 Ohio St. 1999 2 Peerless Price 53 WR 2007 0 0 6 43 123 1 1 25 0 0 23 173 0 403 5281 31 Tennessee 1999 3 Shawn Bryson 86 RB 2006 0 0 1 20 91 528 2144 6 185 1383 3 Tennessee 1999 4 Keith Newman 119 LB 2006 0 0 5 28 102 2 23.0 North Carolina 1999 4 Bobby Collins 122 TE 2001 0 0 0 2 30 16 199 2 North Alabama 1999 5 Jay Foreman 156 LB 2006 0 0 4 29 84 4.5 Nebraska 1999 6 Armon Hatcher 194 DB 2000 0 0 0 0 4 Oregon St. 1999 7 Sheldon Jackson 230 TE 2001 0 0 0 0 45 10 71 2 Nebraska 1999 7 Bryce Fisher 248 DE 2007 0 0 3 26 91 26.5 Air Force 1999 Draft Another stellar draft for Butler picking up a solid CB in Antoine Winfield and a breakout WR in Peerless Price. He also nabbed two decent starting LB's in the middle of the draft. Great draft. Hits 4 Misses 5 Success: 44% Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ 2000 1 Erik Flowers 26 DE 2004 0 0 0 6 58 1 5.0 Arizona St. 2000 2 Travares Tillman 58 DB 2007 0 0 1 13 74 4 Georgia Tech 2000 3 Corey Moore 89 LB 2001 0 0 0 2 10 1.0 Virginia Tech 2000 4 Avion Black 121 WR 2002 0 0 0 2 27 14 142 0 Tennessee St. 2000 5 Sammy Morris 156 RB 2011 0 0 1 28 144 0 0 0 0 0 736 3053 26 166 1258 1 Texas Tech 2000 6 Leif Larsen 194 DT 2001 0 0 0 3 16 2.0 Texas-El Paso 2000 7 Drew Haddad 233 WR 2004 0 0 0 0 2 1 11 0 Buffalo 2000 7 DaShon Polk 251 LB 2006 0 0 1 10 95 4.5 Arizona 2000 Ugh terrible draft. Butler does the rare feat and drafts a class with ZERO draft picks. This was a flat out terrible draft. Hits 0 Misses 8 Success 0% Overall Synopsis: Hits 30 Misses 48 Success: 38% 30/78 John Butler proved to be very good in the draft. While he does have a few legendary misses on his record (Bucky Brooks, Eric Flowes, Todd Collins), he always drafted fairly well in the early round and found great value in the mid to late rounds. So far John Butler is the clear favorite over other Buffalo GM's when it comes to the draft. We will see if Tom Donahoe or Doug Whaley have a higher percentage: 1. John Butler - 38% 2. Russ Brandon: 28% 3. Marv Levy: 25% 4. Buddy Nix: 25% 5. Bill Polian: 23%

Teams should not be scared off by these injuries just look at Shaq Lawson...oh...wait

Not so sure about that. There are many Bills fans who are very much for or against Doug Whaley

If you actually read my posts, I said these are the most polarizing players to the fan base in 2018. Obviously the more recent players are more topical than guys who played during the 1970’s. Seems like someone else is also not too bright

Good point. Perhaps I underrated him a bit. However I feel that people are also underrating the polarizing nature of Doug Whaley

Not bad, but like I said before I don’t think Lamonica or Cookie are as polarizing as the 5 I listed earlier. But Ralph - hell yes! I don’t think Bruce is very polarizing. Maybe at one time he was, but most fans love Bruce

LOL I get the impression he fired them first and then sent out the tweet. Still kind of funny to read that in your timeline

Both surely were polarizing, but not to the extent of the 5 names Iisted

They wont mention Whaley because the Bills ended up with a real GM. You can’t deny that fans either dislike Whaley or they feel he was a good GM who was wronged. in regard to Thurman - people have different interpretations of what it means to be polarizing. How is it a true statement? Show me the source of this information. Just because you want it to be true, doesn’t mean it is

In your opinion... in my opinion he’s hard to listen to, because you know he’ll always tow the company line. I can’t say I blame him. But don’t pretend that an in house reporter is in the same category as a legit reporter, that reports the facts. I’m not sure if Kyle has the gift of gab to be great. If anything I think Lorenzo Alexander is pretty decent

decent list though I’d argue with the order a bit. Lamonica and Saban probably aren’t as relevant in 2018

How are the better? Is it because you believe their better? Their record and playoff berth says otherwise ....And this is exactly why Doug whaley is THE MOST POLARIZING FIGURE IN BILLS HISTORY But it’s true! It’s true! I saw on The Stadium Wall, guys! It’s true! Find me legit proof. Also the fact that players are in the NFL doesn’t nexessarily quantity success. Todd Collins had a long career in the NFL AS A 3rd string QB. That doesn’t make him a good 2nd round draft pick.

Well-deserved. Great selection

I totally disagree there is no one Moreno polarizing than Doug Whaley Right - Donahue is more universally disliked. He’s not a GM that’s as devisive like Doug Whaley

Because if it’s said on the board it means it’s true.

I disagree with your assessment on Whaley. I don’t think he was very good. He did a decent job of adding talent but had no vision or direction. He neglected the QB position and yes he drafted poorly. Not a good GM but many Bills fans think he’s great

Nate definitely is polarizing but I’d say at this point he has more detractors than supporters. He’s no Doug Whaley

That’s not true... find the source of this information. Also take a look at whaley’s drafts and consider the contributions that his players made to the Bills. They were minimal at best also you are contradicting yourself and proving the exact reason why Whaley is so polarizing. He was a bad GM yet people like you are making excuses for him

Not really.... people interpreted the list differently than how I wrote it. That’s not my fault

Thank you Whaley for drafting such generational talent

Eh.... don’t you feel that in 2018, most people think of OJ as a villain? There’s so much negativity now that he doesn’t have he support he once did. For that reason he’s not on my list

As someone who is not a Whaley fan, I have to disagree. There are many whaley defenders on the board here alone who feel that he was a good GM and that he drafted well. It used to surprise me but I’m used to it by now. If you’d like I can tag you in on the comments. People love Doug Whaley for some reason Maybe so, but in 2018 no one is talking about Cookie Gilchrest or Marshawn Lynch.

Thank you brother. I agree with you 100% to not include OJ on the list for those same reasons. I also don’t feel that Flutie is as polarizing as some has said, and that Whaley is far more polarizing, but that’s what makes these topics so much fun

Yep it’s far from a lock to assume Flutie would win