Buffalo03
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Posts posted by Buffalo03
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1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:
We'll have to disagree. You underestimate the quality of guys Peyton had around him and overestimate the quality of guys around Luck.
i would simply say there is no question a healthy Luck is way better than anything coming out in the draft. I mean, if Luck were in the draft this year you wouldn't seriously take Darnold over him, right?
It's hard to say, Darnold hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. If you compare when Luck was in college to Darnold in college I think anyone would have taken Luck. I can't really compare Darnold to Tyrod Taylor to be honest because he has no NFL experience. Darnold could be way better than Luck when he gets to the NFL. Luck's pro career isn't great. He's not an Aaron Rodgers type QB. It's pretty clear Jordy Nelson ain't much of anything without him. Rodgers can take a team of mediocre WRs and still be great. Look at Drew Brees, he threw to Devery Henderson, Marques Colston and a whole cast of mediocre talent and still threw for 5000 yard seasons. Luck isn't that QB in my opinion
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26 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:
Because you have to have guys around you. You seem to think guys like Harrison and Wayne and James and Saturday and Dallas Clarke were made by Manning. Maybe somewhat. But as a comparison did Jimbo make Andre, or vice versa? No, they were complementary. In fact I could argue that Manning in some ways was the rate limiting step in some of the Colts years, because he simply didn't play as well in the playoffs. I get in trouble all the time here in Indy when the GOAT discussion comes up. So many here in Indy say Peyton over Brady, and to me it's another no brainer: has to be Brady without question.
But back to Luck, I think it's amazing he got teams as far in the playoffs as he did, given the rosters around him. If he's healthy, and that would have to be thoroughly examined, Beane would be nuts to not make serious inquiries.
You have to have some pieces but none of those WRs would have had the careers they had without Peyton. Luck has good enough talent around him. He isn't the once in a generation talent he was claimed to be, not even close. He struggles against good defenses and is a turnover machine. He's a good QB but he isn't fantastic. Certainly not worth giving up the farm for especially with a major injury like he has.
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11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:
Ok. But would you agree Luck hasn't had the same complement of guys around him, especially up front?
Is T.Y Hilton Marvin Harrison? No. Is Luck's offensive line as good as Peyton's was? No. However, I can say even with Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne who Luck actually did play with, that it really wouldn't make much of a difference for him. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Luck go against top defenses and lay an egg. I know because I've had him in fantasy football quite a few times. He struggles against good defenses and gets a ton of garbage time yards. Peyton struggled very rarely. It almost didn't matter who he played against. I won't say Luck is a bad QB or he's not that good but I will say that he is overrated because he was deemed a once in every 10 to 15 year player coming out of college but he certainly has not lived up to that hype in my mind
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2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:
You said guys like Peyton had no one. That's crap. Brady you can make a better argument. Rodgers maybe. But Peyton had guys that were damn good here in Indy. He and the two above named guys were complementary to be sure. And yes Peyton will be a HOFer. First ballot and deservedly so, even though he gagged in the playoffs a lot. But his teams had a lot more talent (including linemen like Saturday) than Luck has ever had.
Luck is not overrated. Give him some blocking and a couple good receivers and watch out. Assuming he's healthy, to pass by having a guy like him for 10 years or so under some unknown coming out this year is an absolute no brained.
I didn't say Peyton had no one, I said he makes the players around him better. I find it hard to believe Harrison's career is what it is without arguably a top 3 all time QB throwing him the ball. Was he that great his first two years before Peyton got there? No. He was decent but didn't actually explode until Peyton got there.
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5 hours ago, oldmanfan said:
Peyton had Edgerrin James and a HOF WR in Harrison.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that Peyton is who he is because of Harrison and Edgerring James? Harrison is a HOF'er because of Peyton and yes James was a good RB but come on man. Peyton has made players around him better his entire career. Even in Denver he had quite possibly the greatest season a QB has ever had in 2013. Are you gonna say that it's because he had Demaryius Thomas? Look what happened to the Colts when he missed 2011 because of his neck surgery. They went to crap. Luck is overrated. Period. Trying to make an argument that is just plain stupid is idiotic
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18 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:
All QBs need some circumstances, but for a small minute handful of QBs there was an inevitability that they'd be Franchise QBs purely based on their physical ability/ mental ability/ intangibles.
Tier 1 QBs are the Elite guys (Brady, Brees, and Rodgers are the only 3 absolutes up there with Big Ben probably creeping in, too) who can largely "carry a team," even though with Football being the ultimate team sport, these guys still needed a couple things to fall into place. Brady would never have been Brady without the Hoodie... same for Brees & Payton. I actually think Rodgers might be a slight step above those guys because I just think Rodgers and McCarthy have never jibed as well as the rest, but Rodgers had the circumstance of learning from one of the best in the game on the bench for 4 years and not feeling any pressure. These guys are the generational, rare 1st ballot HOFers that Buffalo was so lucky to have once in Jim Kelly. But they're rare. Incredibly rare. Previous to the 3 (maybe 4...?) guys above we've had maybe 2 other QBs we've seen in that category playing in the NFL since 2000 in Peyton Manning and Brett Favre.
Tier 3 QBs are the guys who are often labelled as "journeymen," "fringe starters," or even "bridge QBs." These are the guys defined by Ryan Fitzpatrick, Josh McCown and Brian Hoyer over the span of their careers. These are guys you want as your backup, but will suffer through them as your starter because they might pleasantly surprise you on occasion.
Tier 2 QBs are the vast majority of guys in the NFL and these are the guys who have the ability/capability to be/of being a Franchise QB, but unlike the tier 1 guys, it's not inevitable, or close to it the way those guys are.
This is where Tyrod Taylor sits.
There are plenty of guys in this category, some of them are probably the higher end of tier 2 like Ryan, Goff, and Wentz. Some of them might be more in the middle like Cousins, Prescott, and Rivers. And others are on the lower end like Dalton, Flacco and Tannehill. But they're all there in tier 2.
The last 2 years for both Matt Ryan and Jared Goff exemplify this tier. They require the right circumstances and, unlike the tier 1 guys, they need a combination of several of these circumstances to be what one might consider a "Franchise QB." These circumstances typically are a combination of weapons in the passing game, a running game, offensive system, offensive play caller, and/or defense.
Matt Ryan has always had the weapons over the span of his career (as a rookie he had an explosive running game with Michael Turner and a solid WR corps with one of the league's best WRs at the time in Roddy White and throughout his career he's had Tony Gonzales and Julio Jones and Davonte Freeman and so on) and he's also always had pretty good Offensive Coordinators/playcallers (Mike Mularkey, Dirk Koetter, Kyle Shanahan). Last year Matt Ryan had an MVP season and I remember all the "HE'S ELITE!!!" conversation. Not to pat myself on the back too much, but I predicted that Ryan would take a pretty significant step back this season because I believed Shanahan was largely responsible for Ryan's season. And look what's happened? Ryan still looks like a starter but has come dropping out of any of the "Elite" dialogue anyone was having... it's pretty funny because I bet all those talking heads who were saying that (and there were A LOT!!!) just feel like idiots now. It's not that Ryan is a bad QB. He's not, he's good. He's just not great the way those tier 1 guys are. He still has good weapons there, so he's still gonna be good enough.
Jared Goff is like the exact opposite example of this. Yeah, I know he was just a rookie last year, but he absolutely SUCKED last year. Like he just looked really bad and the Rams looked foolish. And keep in mind that this was with one of the better defenses in the league and also with one of the more talented RBs in the league (whose production also, ironically was terrible... consistent with this whole "OC help needed" theme, hmmm? 0:)) Then what happens? The team hires a brilliant young offensive mind as a head coach and goes out and acquires talent at the WR position, much to Buffalo's chagrin. And voila!!! Do you guys honestly think Goff just magically became a different guy or is he seriously the beneficiary of a brilliant young offensive play caller and newly acquired (or differently utilized) Elite talent? Yeah, I think it's the latter.
Taylor's in this tier, too. These guys aren't good enough to overcome circumstances, and so far in his career, there have been more circumstances working against Taylor than a lot of the other guys in this tier, which might be the reason we move on from him after this year or, more likely, after next year. But if some circumstances can start shaping up more in Taylor's favor, he's a guy who CAN be our Franchise QB.
I don't think 'The Hoodie' has made Brady what he is. I think it's the other way around
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31 minutes ago, SaviorPeterman said:
Luck was considered the next once every 10-15 year QB prospect when he came into the NFL but quite frankly he hasn't lived up to that mostly due to injuries that derailed 2 of the last 3 seasons and having total crap around him.
Obviously he's a franchise QB and certainly not questioning that, but still not sure I would pursue him if I will the Bills and the Colts still have all the leverage and would be asking for a ton in return if trading him is truly on their radar.
I don't think it has anything to do with injuries, I just think he is overrated. You can't really talk about supporting cast either. Real franchise QBs make the cast around him better like Rodgers, Brady, Peyton when he played. Luck isn't that type of player in my opinion
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Luck has always been overrated to me anyway. He's had a lot of times where he just hasn't played well and put up a lot of garbage time stats. He also for years, played in probably the worst division in football which combined with the garbage time stats, I think has inflated his stats.
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I'm not saying that the Saints aren't a good team and that it's not going to be a difficult game but look at their last 6 opponents that they beat:
The Panthers, although 6-3 have been somewhat up and down this season based on Cam's play. They lost to the Bears
The Dolphins, have been shut out twice and were almost shut out by the Jets in week 3 if not for a late TD in the final two minutes of the game.
The Lions, although they lost, they put up 38 points against them
The Packers without Aaron Rodgers
The Bears, who they barely beat and actually could have lost to if not for a bad call by the refs who overturned a Zach Miller TD on the play where he dislocated his knee. It was a TD clear as day and was even said so the next day when it was admitted by the NFL that they got the call wrong
The Buccaneers, I think we can all say is pretty much a team in turmoil at this point
Again, not saying that they aren't a good team and I absolutely think this is going to be a difficult game against them but I honestly don't think they have beaten anyone spectacular. Also, this is a home game for us which is huge. If this was in New Orleans we wouldn't stand a chance
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I don't know why people wanted Baltimore to win. Baltimore's schedule is fairly easy their last 7 games. They have the Texans without Watson, the Packers without Rodgers and their last 3 games are against the Browns, Colts and Bengals. It was crucial to get them a 5th loss considering we only have 3 at the moment. One of the Jags or Titans is going to win the division and the other is more than likely going to get one of the two wild card spots. Believe me, we don't want the Ravens hanging around. We have had every scenario we needed to happen actually happen today. Now we have to take care of business on Sunday
Report: Huge Problem Brewing between Irsay and Luck
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I would actually say that Cousins and Luck are similar really.