Dawgg

It was stupid. According to Marv, Whitner was far and away the best secondary player in the draft and it wasn't even close. Perhaps that is the case, time will tell. For my money, I severely doubt it. I love Whitner as a player though. Just not at #8.

Understood. The problem with franchising him again next year is that we are essentially holding the team hostage until a deal is made. Teams have learned from the Peerless Price deal that got the Bills a first rounder. The likely scenario is that a team would offer nothing better than a 2nd or 3rd and will wait until the last moment possible to make a deal, knowing that the player is going to leave anyway. To make matters worse, Clements won't exactly want to help the Bills and even if the Bills had a deal worked out, he could simply say he refuses to negotiate with that team... and all this time, he is on the books for $8-10M and the Bills have to account for that space in the cap. Doesn't sound like an appetizing proposition to me.

I think this is a great move for two reasons. First, the Bills made a good faith gesture to Clements and his agent, which makes them more amenable to working with the Bills. Second, it gives the front office another year to sit back and watch to see how Nate does in this system, without breaking the bank for a double digit signing bonus. Suppose Nate plays like a complete superstar, then he might be worth retaining for top cornerback money. If the brass feels he's too expensive, let him walk. Suppose he plays mediocre -- they may be able to get him at a lower pricetag. The bottom line is that Buffalo is close to Nate's hometown in Ohio and they avoid having to pay him a ton of money before seeing how he plays in the new scheme. I see it as a win-win when you avoid paying the big money now and get one more year to evaluate your options.

It would also have involved a swap of first rounders. That's just the common way to reference a trade up. The Bills gave up their 3rd rounder to move up from the 2nd round pick they had to the 25th overall -- ie, a swap of picks PLUS a third rounder.

He is totally right. Getting an additional 2nd rounder would have allowed the Bills more flexibility in the draft. They could have turned around and used that second rounder to move in the first and grab McCargo and still have a second round pick to nab a quality player. Trading down IS a risk, it always is... but that you are rewarded for that risk with additional picks.

Haha thanks. I actually am looking more for good clubs and bars that are a lot of fun moreso than the stripclub variety. Any suggestions?

Organizing a bachelor party this weekend and the plan is to wreak havoc in the Buffalo / Niagara area. Since I'm not from the area, wondering if you guys have any advice on places to go? Good bars/clubs/ anything? Respoond in this thread or PM me. Any advice would be much appreciated -- we have a group of 20 or so. Thanks in avance.

OK I understand what you were saying.

You're being a tad ridiculous. By your logic, the Bills should have passed on Willis McGahee because he did not fill a position of need. Add to it the fact that he had to sit out a year, he set the team back for years. Yet you continue to gush about McGahee being the quickest player to rush for 2000 yards and seem to wholeheartedly back him... in any case, that's besides the point. By your logic, the Saints should have passed on Reggie Bush. They had a much more pressing need at OT. By your logic, the Bills should have passed on Sam Cowart. When the Bills took Sam Cowart, they did not have a pressing need at linebacker. In fact, they were fairly set -- but Wade realized that he was so good, he changed the defense to put him on the field. As a result, Cowart had a monster year and was a key contributor for a few years. Your "team building" argument is just garbage. The draft is about taking good players -- that IS how you build a team. If you take a WR 3 years in a row like the Lions did, then yes, you set your franchise back. To suggest that Hawk would set this team back is laughable. The thread referenced below illustrates a similar decision that the Giants faced under Parcells. http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=46566

I'd like to make 2 points in response to this. First and foremost, to say this team would be been set back for taking AJ Hawk is just purely assenine. AJ Hawk is a disruptive player, an elite linebacker this draft has not seen for a few years. If anything, he alone has the capability to account for2-3 wins. I assume you say this because he has no place to start. Replaceing Posey with him would be huge -- and as Fletcher ages, he can transition to the middle and this team has a force at the LB position for years to come. Couple that with Spikes' injury and the uncertainty surrounding it, this would not be a bad pick by any means. Certainly, it shouldn't be used as fuel in a justification for picking Whitner. Second, I wouldn't throw around the fact that the Bills got "3 first round level talents." Ther Bills once thought Chris Kelsey was a first round level talent and were even targeting him in the first round and when we got him in the 2nd, we were jumping for joy (rightfully so). But circumstance has proven that Kelsey pretty much got drafted where he should have been. Hopefully the same can be said about Whitner and McCargo. I abstain from signing this document.

They may have been targeting McCargo, I was not aware of that. But let's look closer at what they did. They had McCargo rated as a late first round / early second round choice -- hence, they made the trade. The Giants traded its first-round (No. 25) pick to Pittsburgh for the Steelers' first- (No. 32), third- (No. 96) and fourth-round (No. 129) picks. Pittsburgh selected Santonio Holmes, wr, Ohio State. New York selected Mathias Kiwanuka, de, Boston College, Gerris Wilkinson, lb, Georgia Tech and Guy Whimper, g, East Carolina. Maybe the Giants made a mistake but they came out of it with a solid pass rusher and some depth at offensive line and linebacker. For a team like the Bills, with numerous holes, they should have been more aggressive about acquiring more picks, NOT giving them up. The Giants are a playoff contender and they can and should target specific players they feel will get over the hump. The Bills, on the other hand, should make use of 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks and add players who will serve as the team's core for years to come. Just look what they were able to do in the mid rounds -- Ko Simpson, Youboty, the butcher knife guy... all GREAT value picks.

Exactly. The worst case scenario in taking a gamble and moving down is you still get a very good starting-caliber player for the defense PLUS additional second and fourth round picks. This was a botched draft.

... and some posters can't help but gush at every move the Bills make.

Precisely.

It's a futile effort arguing on this point. Some fans are built to simply regurgitate whatever the team does and accept it as the best course of action. Emprical evidence shows that teams that draft linemen early and often generally become repeat playoff contenders.

I love it. Classic denial. The man is right.

Time will tell, I suppose. To me, after the top 6 picks, 7-17 were fairly comparable in value... comparable enough such that an extra second or third could make up for the difference and then some.

THANK YOU!!!! Finally, someone who understands the concept of value.

#2, my friend. The Patriots will contend for the Super Bowl next year. In doing so, they attacked immediate needs they had at the WR and RB position. They were justified in doing so. The Steelers will contend for the Super Bowl next year. In doing so, they attacked immediate needs they had at the WR position. They were justified in doing so. Your beloved Bills will NOT compete for the Super Bowl and have numerous holes on the roster. There are major depth concerns at virtually every position. Despite this, they went into the early rounds of the draft targeting specific positions. IMO, they were not justified in doing so. New Orleans had major holes at LB and OT. Yet the top two candidates on their draft board were a defensive and and a running back. Why? Because it offers maximum value. Picking at 8 when the quality of playes available was comparable to the 15 slot, staying put was stupid.

Umm... Perhaps it's the fact that this team had a horrible pass rush? Any secondary can be beaten after 4-5 seconds.

I knew you'd pounce on that. But this team has holes across the board and is in no position to target specific positions in this draft. If this is New England or Pittsburgh we are talking about, then I would agree. But this is a team in rebuilding mode and needs to stockpile as much young talent as possible on both sides of the ball.

I didn't know that Donahoe was targeting Stroud because it seemed as though they planned to go after Nate from the get-go -- but if that's true, you can look at that in two ways. TD realized that at pick 13, there wasn't anything of value so he simply moved down and acquired extra picks in the process. In that sense, I feel the scenarios were similar.

DE and LB aren't needs? What are you smoking? Who plays opposite Aaron Shobel? Kelsey is good, but a strong DE like Tamba Hali would have a major impact on the Bills' pass rush and a 3-man rotation at the Defensive End position would do us a lot of good. At linebacker, we have London Fletcher entering the final year of his contract and Spikes coming off a huge injury.

Better than Whitner would have been: Moving down in the first and picking up an extra 2nd or a 3rd and have a slight chance at nabbing Whitner with a later pick. If he's gone, grab Tamba Hali or Greenway, or Lawson all three of which could step in and help this team right away. In doing so you acquire an extra pick AND you save a ton of money. The way TD turned the 13 overall pick into Nate Clements and Travis Henry is a perfect illustration of this concept.

Exactly. What people fail to understand is the value the Bills got from that pick. Donte Whitner will probably be an Antoine Winfield type of player -- very good player, borderline Pro Bowl level, critical component of the defense. If he plays at AW's level or better, I will be very happy. However, Winfield was drafted with the 23rd overall pick and was PAID like the 23rd overall pick. We were able to retain his services for 5 years at a bargain price. Whitner, on the other hand, is a top 10 pick. A different value system applies.