grb

Oh lord. Another hair-brained loony-tune theory to take the long detour around what's obvious. I won't point out how well Taylor played when he had a good (nowhere near elite) offensive cast. I won't point out the crap situation he had last year. Those facts are like the 500lb gorilla in the room : If you can't see the beast, odds-are you're trying very, very hard not to. Let's look at the latest version of someone trying very, very hard : Bad receivers aren't bad receivers because a craftsmen doesn't blame his tools. First, bad receivers remain bad receivers regardless. Second, the "craftsman" of this analogy didn't blame his tools - Taylor didn't trash his receivers. Third, other people are permitted to notice the difficulty of creating a swiss watch with a dull axe - even if it's taboo for our "craftsman" to say so. Besides, this isn't just gibberish, it's also completely false. I've known craftsmen. No one is more demanding or critical about their tools than they are. "You can say all you want that he had nobody to pass the long ball to"......because he didn't. Full stop. That's why you can say it. His "deep threat" was Chicago-freakin-Bears reject Deonte Thompson. Bad receivers aren't bad receivers because (insert long incoherent quote starting with "These are all NFL pros"). Last season Taylor was sixteenth in the league by NFL passer rating. Just above him was Matt Ryan; just below were Dak Prescott, Andy Dalton, and Derek Carr. Want to make a case a quarterback under-performed with the assets given him? Maybe you should start with Taylor's four neighbors. They all had much, much more to work with than he did. "TT just refused to ruin the only truly marketable asset he had..." Our poster doesn't even bother to explain what this drivel means. If I had to guess, it's something to do with Taylor throwing few interceptions. Anti-TT-types have this bizarre obsession with making his low interception rate into a Tragic Flaw of intelligence, ethics, fortitude, resolve or manliness. Yep. That may be stupid, sick or pathetic - perhaps all at once - but it's their obsession. Reminder : Taylor had the same low interception rate the 15 games he had Watkins and Woods on the field - when he had a 8.25 ypa and threw 27 tds. "This was so apparent in so many games when he flat out didn't attempt the passes to wide open receivers"..... Ah, yes - all those "open receivers" streaking wild and free in the mind of every Taylor hater. I'm convinced they dream of them at night, perhaps counting them as they flow by like so many sheep. I admit to sometimes having inappropriate daydreams about luscious Hollywood starlets. The anti-Taylor crowd? They fantasize about about all those "wide open receivers". So many !!! Why, you can almost reach out and touch them, they seem soooo real...... Speaking of real : Bills receivers were at league bottom in getting separation. There's a stat for that. That's where they were. Back in the real world. Not in fantasies.

I don't think facts, evidence or personal opinion drives NFL disciplinary matters - public relations does.....

Three Points : Without the incoherent spittle-spraying rants of TT-haters, the man would barely have any support here. Trust me on this, I know. Maybe you should do a measure of Irrational Support vs Irrational Hatred. It'd be good for you; self-awareness is a positive thing, however painful. Your rankings will be constantly re-calibrated during the '18 season. And it doesn't matter if that's a hill you want to die on or not. You chose the ground; you're stuck.

Cowherd is a clown. Not only did Mayfield not stand for his half-baked crap, but BM was smooth and in control while answering back. I'm sure that wasn't the kind of response Colin was looking to provoke.......

They say the best thing to do in your situation is to stop digging......

Really cute puppies dude. That aside, are you going show up this Fall - in the inevitable threads on TT's performance in Cleveland? You might need your puppies then. They say pets are a great help to people suffering depression.........

Yes, Taylor often held the ball too long. Yes, the pass protection was frequently atrocious. Yes, Taylor sometimes made critical plays precisely because he held the ball too long. Partisans on the Taylor Issue tend to pick one of those three, yet they're all true. But it's even more complicated than that. Time to Throw is a curious stat. Looking at the 2017 numbers - yes - we find Taylor near the bottom, just above Russell Wilson and DeShaun Watson. But we also find Tom Brady at 23rd, Matt Ryan at 25th, Case Keenum at 32nd and Jared Goff at 35th. The top ten are : Blaine Gabbert, Brian Hoyer, Andy Dalton, Derek Carr, Eli Manning, Josh McCown, Ben Roethlisberger, Mike Glennon, Jay Cutler, and C.J. Beathard. Excuse me for being critical, but I don't find that an inspirational list. Also : There's little more than a half-second difference between the topmost and worst numbers. I just paused to look at my watch and consider that. You assume, of course, that tiny little delta still has a colossal significance. Maybe it does, but it isn't reflected very much in the rankings. Good and bad quarterbacks are distributed almost randomly up & down the list. https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2017/all#average-time-to-throw

Hilarious. What point do you think you're making? I doubt you even know. Look at the numbers : Does it seem like Taylor needs an excuse for his play the limited time he had Watkins and Woods on the field? An 8.25 ypa would be near top of the league for any year, any team, any quarterback. The touchdown to interception ratio is stellar, and 27 tds total probably noses you up around the top dozen a typical sixteen game season. And that's what the "right on the cusp of being a back-up" did the only time in three years the Bills put a decent group of skill players around him. Please feel free to take your sack stat and ride that horsey as far as it goes. The big picture doesn't change : How many games Taylor starts for Cleveland depends on how long Cleveland is playing meaningful games, which is hard to predict. But Taylor will be starting for an NFL team in '19 and the years after. Because this "right on the cusp" and "almost every team" schlock is - frankly speaking - pretty damn stupid.

And yet all you had to do was put Watkins and Woods on the same field with him, and he did this : 63.6% comp. 8.25 ypa. 27 td passes. 6 ints ( 15 games total) But what am I saying ?!? He was probably sacked during those fifteen games - while he was throwing over eight yards an attempt, with a 27-6 td/int ratio...... And to think, over half of the quarterbacks in the league throw to receivers as good if not better than W&W - probably way more than half. Hell, Woods got only the third most targets on the Rams; Watkins even less. You can almost say the QB for every team in the league had a better set of weapons these past two years than Tyrod, but not quite. Very close, tho. I'm guessing a lot of people's quotes are right on the cusp of getting bumped, once games are played this fall..........

God I love quarterback debates !!! So Peterman showed good accuracy on the passes he was accurate on? There's a firm foundation on which to build.........

It doesn't seem like that hard a question : If Taylor is the disaster so many people yearn to believe, why did he play pretty well the only time the Bills put a good (not elite) offensive cast around him? That seems so simple, but ask and you hear every kind of nonsense. Let's take this thread alone : OldTimeAFLGuy is still selling his shtick Taylor lacks the "skill set" to throw downfield. But inquire of the old-timer why TT had one of the best long-games in the NFL when the Bills fielded a deep threat - and then you get deafening silence. The Red King has this soulful theory it's just a "crisis of faith". Mercifully, this isn't a Garden of Gethsemane-style-thing, but lack of faith by Taylor in his receivers. About those receivers - rated one of the worst groups in the league last year - T.R.King has strangely little to say. But if faith is belief in the absence of evidence, then T.R.K. has it it spades. He believes (truly believes!!!) in all those wide receivers streaking free and clear every single play. Meanwhile, (back on home planet Earth) NetGenStats listed the Bills receivers as near league-bottom in getting separation. Of course faith can handle that fact, right? But PeterGriffin has the most elegantly constructed nonsense of all : The league "figured Taylor out" at the exact same rate his offensive cast deteriorated. Two independent phenomena occurring in perfect sync, but having absolutely no relationship. Try disproving something that nebulous, huh? It doesn't seem like that hard a question : If Taylor is the disaster so many people want to see, why did he play pretty well the only time the Bills put a good (not elite) offensive cast around him? Or for that matter, why shouldn't he play the same way when put in the same situation?

Especially downfield, huh? When Taylor actually had a downfield receiver he was one of the best long-ball throwers in the NFL. It wasn't that long ago; you should remember. TT averaged eight yards an attempt in 2015, which is an exceptional number for any year, any quarterback, any team. Exactly when did he waste "skill position talent" as a Bill ?!? When Watkins sat half a season, then ran on a broken left foot when he did play? When his receivers were Matthews & Benjamin just shy of crutches, Zay like a deer in the headlights, Holmes & Tate as warm bodies, and Deonte Thompson starring as the "deep threat"?!? Yeah. Taylor really wasted a lot of "skill position talent" there. Perhaps you've forgotten: Taylor only had Watkins and Woods together 15 games over two years. When he did? 63.6% comp. 8.25 ypa. 27 td passes. 6 ints. Seems like Taylor didn't waste that "skill position talent" the limited time he had it on the field. But - hey - entertaining thread. Probably lots of good quotes to bump once real games are being played.........

I was responding to this : "certainly hope his new start/new venue moves him closer to (his) NFL dream of being a starting NFL QB" To be fair, maybe OldTimeAFLGuy just got a little clunky in his phrasing - something I'm guilty of often. Otherwise it's a kinda strange statement. And yes, the trade was good for both parties, though please excuse me if I find your reasoning ludicrous. (One of the best deep-ball passers in the NFL lost the ability to throw deep because he .... (dramatic pause) .... "lost faith"...... give. me. a. break..... Bottom line? The Bills were always going to see Taylor as a year-by-year expedient, they were always going to treat him poorly, and they were happy letting offensive talent drain from the team with Taylor as an excuse. None of which was good for either side. No one knows what Allen will become, but lets assume the worse and say his first two years are : 83 of 218, 38.1%, 1410 yds, 6.5 ypa, 6 tds, 24 ints 203 of 373, 54.4%, 2259 yds, 6.1 ypa, 13 tds, 21 ints Then maybe he becomes the four-time Super Bowl champion, one year MVP and twice season TD-throwing leader Terry Bradshaw. The Steelers committed to him, they built a team around him, and championships resulted. Or look at the current Pittsburgh quarterback: Roethlisberger whined about "wasting" a pick on Rudolph because he (BR) is a jerk, but the Steelers also spent a 2nd & 3rd round pick on receiver and o-linesman. Neither position was close to a need, but Pittsburgh has continually re-stocked and re-loaded to give their guy everything he needs to succeed. It helps to have someone who is "your guy" so you start taking responsibility for supporting & building around him. Otherwise you're just sitting around with your thumb (in an awkward place) - perhaps inventing lame-o theories (faith ?!?!). I was living in the Washington area when RGIII and Cousins were drafted. After Griffin's injury the Redskins played Cousins and weren't entirely satisfied. Later they tried Cousins two or three more times, at one point benching him for Colt McCoy. Sometime during all that, the idea he wasn't "their guy" burrowed into their brains, and no matter how much Kirk lit it up afterwards, that idea could never be dislodged. That's how Washington bungled thru multiple franchise tags before paying out the same money for Smith and, to my eye, getting the worse of the deal. You don't wanna make it too complicated. Taylor is gone. Allen is the guy. Look to the future and work to make it happen. (also: don't waste time worrying if Allen has "faith" in his receivers. please)

People look at this thread with negativity and limited vision. Heard of the Eternal Flame? Think something like that.......

There's something so very Billsy about saying Cleveland gives Taylor the chance to start for an honest-to-god real NFL team.......

I thought the point in tossing Tyrod and getting a high-draft choice quarterback was everyone would finally grow-up, and stop using the qb as a whipping boy for team-wide dysfunction. I doubt if anyone can prosper with the Bills' offense this year, whether Allen is ready or not, whether Peterman is beyond '17 or not, whether McCarron surprises or not. There's something perverse about setting your quarterback up to fail, then ripping your hair out / screeching when the inevitable results. Bonus points if you seem to take masochistic pleasure in the ritual. So many posters here appear to do so.

And yet, when the Bills actually put a downfield receiver on the field with him, he had one of the best long-ball arms in the NFL. Hell, they even made a (very lame) Toyota commercial out of the fact. But I guess his "skill set" just vanished from his body at precisely the exact time the team forgot to give him a target to throw to. Pretty amazing coincidence, eh? Of course don't be surprised if that "skill set" reanimates in the upcoming season. Of course, the Browns having receivers who aren't hospital cases or practice squad scrubs will just be another darn coincidence......

On the current topics : Taylor says he'd like to meet the Bills in the playoff and win. That's controversial how? This thread is underrated. Think of all the "bump" material it provides once real games are being played in September. I'm excited...... On Taylor "playing the race card" if benched for Mayfield : He would have done so after the imbecilic decision to start Peterman if there was even the slightest chance he'd take that road. Instead he was team-first and classy. I'm afraid that Commonsense's little fantasy lacks credibility (and common sense).

Why do people obsessed with Taylor "playing the race card" seem to be much more obsessed with race than Taylor ever was or will be? It's a mystery, that.......

With time-to-throw, the most interesting thing is how tight the numbers are. There's barely more than a half-second difference from best to the worse, and minute differences can swing a quarterback's rank way up or down. Take Aaron Rogers, who sits at 15th place. Just 07/100 of a second would move him up to 8th place or down to 25th. Basically, everyone who starts as an NFL quarterback throws a microscopic degree above or below 2.5 seconds. You assume there must be real distinction even in such tiny differences, but look at the list : Elite/bad quarterbacks seem to be distributed almost randomly up and down the ranking.

Quote : "Plenty of times Brady takes more than two seconds" Well, given Brady's Time to Throw average in 2017 was 2.71 seconds, I'd say that's an understatement. Another Fun Fact : Brady is solidly in the middle of NFL quarterbacks - actually below average a bit. And the leaders? Blaine Gabbert, Brian Hoyer, Andy Dalton, Derek Carr, Eli Manning, Josh McCown - in that order. Now there's a lineup destined for Canton, huh? Taylor is down near the bottom, of course, just above Russell Wilson and DeShaun Watson. Of course the margin between those three is minuscule. But the delta between Tyrod and Tom is only three-tenths of a second...... https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2017/all

This parallels another recent discussion we had, on the more specific topic of Taylor's deep ball. As a reminder : You admitted Taylor had a good deep ball when he had a deep threat receiver in 2015 You admitted Taylor's deep threat receiver sat half of 2016 with an injury You admitted Taylor's deep threat receiver was hobbled by injury in 2016 when he did play. Now this one took an effort, since you first suggested he was "cured" when he came back. It took a long quote from the leading journal on sports injuries re Watkins' broken left foot (and severe pain) to wring that hard-won admission from you. You admitted Taylor had no deep threat in 2017. So, after all these graceful concessions, we had a clear explanation why Taylor's deep ball was less efficient from 2015 to 2016 to 2017, right? Nope. Per Thurman, the fact that Taylor had less & less to work with each successive year was just a coincidence. Per Thurman, Taylor's ability to throw long magically drained out of his body at the exact same rate (coincidence) his targets disappeared. Thurman (apparently) will walk sixty miles of hard thorny ground to swing a wide clear path around OBVIOUS COMMON SENSE Me? My favorite Medieval scholastic philosopher is William of Occam. He said the simplest explanation is usually best and true. I don't need magical "regressions" or mystical theories where someone is "figured out". I've got the simplest explanation of all : When the Bills gave Taylor tools, he used them.

I've got a familiar point to make here, but will lay it out slowly so everyone can "process the information" : Taylor only had Watkins and Woods on the field 15 games over two years When he did, this resulted : 63.6% comp. 8.25 YPA. 27 td passes. 6 ints Watkins and Woods were a good number 1&2 receiver, but by no means elite Yet with a good number 1&2 receiver, apparently Taylor could (how does that go?) "commit to the throw" With a good number 1&2 receiver, apparently Taylor could "get his mind around" it (whatever it is) With a good number 1&2 receiver, apparently Taylor could "process the information" With a good number 1&2 receiver, apparently Taylor was "smart enough to function on that level" I apologize if I missed any hackneyed Taylor-bashing cliche above, because I don't want to slight anyone. But isn't it amazing how well Taylor functioned when he wasn't throwing to hospital cases or scrubs scrapped off another teams' practice squad? Take 2015 alone, and TT was 7th in the NFL by passer rating, threw for 8 ypa, and had one of the lowest interception rates in the league. All this while being mentally deficient - per the judgement of so many commentators here. Astounding, huh? Of course I think many of those same commentators still gush over how smart Peterman is - a man who has had made more bone-head decisions per play than pretty much anyone in living memory. Go figure.......

Quote : "......the passing game was never going to become a viable offensive THREAT, especially downfield" This is where the anti-Taylor shtick gets bizarre. The only time the man had a downfield threat he was fifth in the NFL in yards per attempt. Hell, whenever Taylor had Woods and Watkins on the same field, he averaged 8.25 yards per pass, which is exceptional for any quarterback, any year. But in 2016 his number-one receiver / downfield threat sat half the season and ran on a broken left foot when he did play. All of latter '16 his number-two receiver was severely hobbled as well. And in 2017? He had Deonte Thompson, which is all you need to say about that The anti-Taylor position seems to be this : It's a gosh-darn coincidence Taylor's ability to push the ball downfield reduced exactly as the quality of his offensive weapons dropped lower and lower. The two phenomena have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Instead Taylor "regressed" and he now can't do something he did better than most qbs just a short time ago. The ability vanished from his body the exact same time (coincidence) he was saddled with one of the league-worst sets of receivers. So, two questions : Do even the anti-Taylor people believe something so stupid? Is it finally time for team and fans to grow up? Because the Bills now have a quarterback that looks like they think a quarterback should : first-rounder, tall, strong-armed, etc, etc, etc. But so far they've made no greater effort to set him up to succeed than with Taylor. It's not all bad news - the O coordinator has to be better, and running back depth isn't the perverse joke of last year - but line and receivers will probably prove mediocre to abysmal. Yet maybe this is the point team and fans face the responsibility of building for success in the real world, as opposed to playing BS games, indulging in stupid&petty recriminations and wallowing in empty fantasy. The Bills have their "real" quarterback - but with real quarterbacks comes great responsibility (to paraphrase Voltaire or Peter Parker)

Don't really have one. I'm just collecting quotes to bump after the season begins.........