Mikey152

I said, and I quote “give me one reason Curtis Samuel can’t be Stef Diggs in this offense” Instead of reasons, I got jokes, baseless opinions and all kinds of other garbage. No real discussion. But of course, what did I expect…if you all are honest with yourselves you don’t know anything about Curtis Samuel beyond his stats and what you read or saw in highlights. here is what I know FOR A FACT. He is the same size as Diggs, he is extremely explosive, he has had success in the NFL playing running back, slot receiver and flanker, and he has never played with a decent qb since his rookie year. so maybe he isn’t as good as Diggs, but the only proof of that are stats… not even rate stats, but cumulative stats. Here’s a stat for you…last season Diggs had like 1200 yards on 160 targets. With Josh Allen as his QB.

Journeyman? He’s 27. He’s pretty much the same age Diggs was when he came to Buffalo.

Gabe Davis and Curtis Samuel are nothing alike. Gabe Davis was a fourth round pick I had never heard of coming out of college. He had a limited skill set and inconsistent hands. Curtis Samuel was a star in college. He only dropped to the second round because he was a bit of a tweener. He has played with trash QBs, not Josh Allen. He missed a whole season due to injury, and his 2019 was just as good as his 2020, he just had a terrible quarterback who couldnt get him the ball after Cam got hurt. i get it, you all think he is a number three because of stuff like fantasy football, surface stats and the like. Maybe you should go back and watch the commanders vs bills. Watch him beat our corners only to have Howell get sacked over and over or throw picks. its funny, I thought I was on a Bills board, but I guess it’s cooler to be a pessimist around here. Get on the WR suck train or you’re a homer

I'm glad you all have jokes...gonna save this thread for later.

Sure it is...it is called extrapolation. Sure, there could be some regression if his target share increased, but I don't think projecting 8 ypt is wild. At 160 targets, he would put up 1300 yards. Here's what I know...your opinion is based on A) never really watching him play and B) historical stats with no context. I am trying to project who he could be on the Bills, not who he was. You have presented no evidence to dispute my claim aside from "talent" and you didn't even quantify it. Do you not see how "Diggs is more talented because of his numbers" and "Diggs has better numbers because he is more talented" is completely circular???

Just to be clear, Samuel has posted elite separation numbers the last 4 seasons...Like, as good or better than Stef. So is it that Samuel isn't as good, or that Kyle Allen, Teddy Bridgewater and the garbage in Washington aren't as good as Cousins and JA (the only QBs diggs ever had 100 yards with...he never had 1k in three seasons with Sam Bradford or Keenum as his QB...)

Please, enlighten me on how you quantify that Diggs was the best route runner in the NFL...that is completely subjective. The difference between John Brown and Diggs/Samuel is size. He, too, was an elite separator, but with a much smaller frame. As a result, he wasn't going to be able to be as physical as a Diggs or Samuel. On 160 targets. He had two seasons at 9+ ypt (great) and two at 7.5 (pretty bad for an outside WR with that many touches). In his one season with Joe Brady, Samuel averaged 8.8 ypt. at 160 targets, that's 1400 yards. His win rates are similar to Diggs, so he gets open enough...whether he gets that many targets is TBD, but doubtful...my guess is they don't target anyone that much.

How so? Again, you're making this up based on perception, not reality. Watch the Matt Harmon video. Curtis Samuel wins 75%+ of his snaps against man coverage EVERY season. He is one of the best man coverage separators in the league. You know what made Diggs Diggs prior to his mini-collapse? He was one of the best man coverage separators in the league. They are literally the same size and have practically the same skill set, only Samuel is even faster and better with the ball in his hands. Just remember this thread after the season.

This is your opinion. This is not fact. I stated facts and measurables. Posted a video from the same guy that everyone cites when it comes to Coleman being a big slot saying that Samuel is great and highly underrated and isn't just a gadget/slot guy. And still, I get subjective nonsense from people who probably havent even seen him play. You can call me a homer if you want, but I guarantee I am more informed than most of the people weighing in on this thread.

It has nothing to do with Homerism. I live in Columbus. I remember his 2016 season. He was one of the best football players I have ever seen. I actually think YOUR homerism is blinding w/ regards to Diggs. We apply this revisionist history that he was this dominant #1 his whole career, or that he was even a first team all pro for the Bills outside of 2020.

Says who? He was a second round pick, Diggs was a 5th. He ran a 4.3 and is every bit that fast. Diggs ran a 4.46 Samuel is 5'11 195 and Diggs 6' 191. Arm length is identical and both have decent sized hands. It has nothing to do with talent. I would argue CS is a MORE TALENTED player than Diggs. He just hasn't been as productive for whatever reason. Mostly injury and team related, IMO. People seem to forget that even Diggs wasn't really Diggs until he got to Buffalo and his targets went way up. Then you never really saw him play. I watched him live in college, and he is one of the most talented players I have ever seen.

That's a bit disingenuous... Bills top pick was a WR, they signed KCs top paid WR from 2023, they signed CS who has similar production on less targets than Brown, and they signed a few lottery tickets to tiny deals in Claypool and Hamler (both recent second rounders). All while eating 31 million for Diggs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByI7mysVKM

OK...give me one reason Curtis Samuel can't be Stef Diggs in this offense. On the other side, all we really need is one of Coleman, MVS and Claypool to step up...doesn't even need to be them same guy each week. None of them HAVE done it for a full season in the NFL, but all of them have the talent TO do it.

And yet, every time 2023 KC receivers are brought up, you get some combination of "but Mahomes/Kelce/Reid"

I think they call that context.

You're going to have to help me out on this one... What about our current receiver room suggests we got slower, less efficient and more LOS focused? Shakir is the same, Coleman is considerably more athletic than Davis, Samuel is considerably more athletic than Stef, and any combination of Claypool/MVS/Hamler/Hollins destroys last years bottom of the roster in the HWS department. Honestly, Davis was the only guy on the roster that could even play split end last year. Stef is much better off the ball. Now we have at least 3 guys and hopefully 4 (Coleman)

I guess I consider myself an optimist when it comes to the Bills. Specifically regarding the receivers, one of the things I find most interesting is how the goal posts move constantly. Lots of confirmation bias, I guess. Take Coleman and Samuel, for example. Coleman was a first rounder projected to the Bills until two things happened: He ran a poor 40 and reception perception published his separation metrics. After that, he was slow and couldn't separate, so he is trash. It's a take...one I don't agree with, but it is a take. But what I don't get is those same people slamming Curtis Samuel. 4.3 40. One of the best separators in the NFL. He is a Matt Harmon darling...Matt almost lost his mind on his podcast when he heard Samuel was signing here. On top of that, CS had by far his best season as a pro with Brady, He's almost identical to Diggs size-wise, and his contract was super affordable in this WR market. So help me understand how the same things you use to crush one guy can be completely ignored with another guy?? I think I know the answer...Bills fans wanted a name and didn't get one. Oh, and on a side note...can we kill the narrative about Josh spreading the ball around? The Bills tied the record for most receivers with a TD catch in 2020...arguably Josh's best season statistically. He is perfectly capable of running an offense with diverse targets.

I watched all the games, that is where. I also watched your video, and every other TD was from the slot or the backfield. Not 2/7 or whatever you said. He wasn't playing split end more than like 5 snaps all season. Even in the slot, he would often line up at RB first, then motion to the slot to force the defense to declare how they were covering him. Listen, I don't know what to tell you, but Curtis Samuel was never a WR at OSU any more than James Cook was last year for us or CMac is for the niners.

He only took snaps from the slot and at RB at OSU...not sure where you saw he was lined up out wide. Feel free to show a time stamp, but the buckeyes had like 50 outside WR that year and barely threw to any of them. I'm not saying he had no experience running routes, but when he got to the NFL he went from being a RB that played the slot to pretty much a full time WR. There was no way he was gonna put up massive numbers as a #1 year 1, regardless of the competition, because the NFL is way better at covering the slot than they are in college.

I am pretty sure that is exactly what will happen, unless somebody like Claypool or Coleman take the reigns and become dominant. See my post earlier in the thread...Shakir had elite YPT last year, so he can get close to 1k with similar production and 80-90 targets. Even if he regresses a little, I think guys like Samuel, Cook, Coleman and MVS can also provide YPT north of 8. I think, top to bottom, that the WR core is going to have a higher catch % AND better YAC than at least the last two seasons WR. Let's face it, it wouldn't be hard.

Yes and no. I would say that it DOES need to focus more on spreading the ball around initially, as nobody on the current roster is proven as a 150+ target guy. That said, I think this is easily the most physically talented WR core Josh has ever had, and it isn't really close. Top to bottom, Catch %, size, speed is all better than it has ever been.

I live in Columbus and saw a lot of those games live...what I am telling you is he was not a WR at OSU, but a RB that took snaps in the slot. He basically played the Percy Harvin role. He's also 34. His targets and receptions were both down last season. Even if you assume no additional regression from him this season, I think it is safe to assume Kincaid's targets will increase (from 90) closer to TKs 130 or more. If that happens, I see no reason DK can't equal TK's 2023 production. They were already pretty similar from a rate perspective and Kincaid was a rookie.

No, not really. He played 3 seasons, and the first two were pretty much strictly at RB. He played a tiny bit of slot as a junior, but mostly flexed. Definitely not a WR.

I feel like this is disingenuous. Everyone likes to move the goalposts...lets take the Chiefs the last two years, for example. The will say "yeah, their WR suck, but Kelce..." but barely even mention Kincaid and Knox as factors. I would bet that as soon as this year Kincaid will surpass Kelce in production. As for Rice...he was a second round rookie and pretty much a non-factor to start the year. You could easily argue he isn't even as good a prospect as Coleman. So you are using confirmation bias based on results, not how they built their team.

Clearly you don't know much about Curtis Samuel... He was a RB in college, not a WR. He was "converted" in the NFL. So judging how he played as a WR in his rookie season on a trash team is a really crappy way to judge him. He was drafted high because he is extremely fast and magic with the ball in his hands. If he was a polished WR, he would have been a first rounder. All that said, his physical measurables are identical to Diggs. He was one of the best in the NFL separating against man last year. He is a quality player who arguably has never met his potential. This year, we will see if that is a CS thing, or a situation thing. Most great WR (and great players for that matter) are generally a byproduct of opportunity.