Mikey152

I'm gonna get killed for this, I know it already...but I think they're gonna try and use him like the Dolphins use Tyreek. Probably not featured like Tyreek is, but similar from the perspective that he plays as a flanker and is moving a ton presnap. Lots of targets between the 20s as their primary man beater.

Yet he was second in targets, catches and yards among their WR. Yes, I said #5 on the Bills...that was at WR. If we count TE and RB, He is likely #8 in targets this season barring injury. So the point doesn't change. He was a starter on the Falcons and he likely won't be on the Bills. There was nothing disingenuous. This whole thread has gone back and forth between WR or WR/TE (and apparently RB now). But if you felt misled by my post, my apologies. That was not my intent. I was merely trying to point out that he was their #2 WR and didn't clarify. All that said, instead of focusing on how I "lied" maybe you can tell me how you think the Falcons receivers and TE are significantly (16 vs 28) better than the Bills? This isn't a courtroom...maybe focus less on winning and more on a constructive conversation?

We both know I was talking about receivers. But great job grabbing a post from a few pages back, not actually commenting on any of the points or telling me why the falcons TE and WR are 12 spots better, and pointing out my error. Not enough bad news today to gloat about, I guess. you win. You’ve officially killed the thread.

Claypool isn't a savior...and I don't think the Bills see him as one. But it is clear that instead of taking late round fliers on WR, they chose to pick up a bunch of recently highly drafted WR that flopped in the NFL to varying degrees for whatever reason. I think the starters are pretty much locked in as Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid and Cook. Only X and how much 12 we play (and who comes off) is really much of a question at this point. If some combination of Coleman and MVS do a decent job, the Bills will be fine. I know what you think of my opinion, and it is whatever...but as someone who has seen ALOT of Curtis Samuel football, we should be excited to hear he is playing flanker and going in motion a lot.

Legendofricallen.com has the full movie up...

First off, I read the article...It said Warren Sharp analysis team, whoever that is. And they even said the rankings were based on whatever criteria the voter decided was appropriate. It's not hard to see how someone would look at the Bills receivers and think they are bad...Coleman is a bust, Shakir has short arms, Samuel is a gadget guy, MVS can't catch, Claypool is a head case and who the heck is Mack Hollins. That's probably what most people think. Most of those statements even have some truth to them. It's just not the whole truth. I really need to follow my instincts and push away from this thread once and for all. There really is no point. It will be exactly like Alpha said...If theyre good, there will be some excuse like "I did say if Keon or Kincaid stepped up, they might be ok" and if they are bad, full of I told you so. Im not trying to be right. Im not even trying to make a prediction. Im just saying that maybe you should enjoy the ride a little instead of assuming it is gonna suck before it even starts. "Worrying only means you suffer twice" Trying to convince Bills fans their team doesn't suck is just strange.

Fly by me? Of course it is a fact he wrote that...the ranking is the opinion. Not sure this is the gotcha you think it is...I never debated that Warren Sharp ranked them 28th...clearly he did.

Well, the full movie is up...It is even weirder than the trailer. Might still buy a tshirt, tho

Do you think maybe that frustration might have some influence on your opinion? Also, for the record...that's not how scientific method works. If it were scientific, according to his observations his hypothesis would be the Bills are 28th best based on whatever his criteria is, and the season would would either confirm or deny it. Either way, a hypothesis is really just an informed guess. If a scientist were to claim his hypothesis is correct without testing it, he isnt much of a scientist Just curious what you think of all the twitter notes from practice today...guess it's time to start worrying about the defense if they can't shut these scrubs down, huh?

I know what the difference between objective and subjective is…I am a scientist. If you can put “I think” “We think” or “he thinks” in front of what you are saying, it’s an opinion. THAT is a fact. “I think the Bills receivers will be terrible in 2024” ”Warren sharp thinks the Bills are the 28th best receiver group” Neither of these are facts. They are opinions. To make them objective, you would need to say something like “Based on historical production, the Buffalo Bills have the 28th least productive WR group in the NFL. Teams with historically poor production from WR are often unsuccessful” That could be a fact, I guess. But you’ll notice the distinction…it only talks about what has happened (ie facts) not on what will happen (ie opinion) the reason your post isn’t a fact is because there are exceptions to everything you claim. Exceptions that have been pointed out countless times in this thread. You and your ilk continuously choose to not acknowledge this bias in your findings. they have a term for that…it’s called confirmation bias. what is fascinating to me about all of this is most of us are Bills fans. The thing I am leaving this thread with isn’t even anything about the receivers…it’s really about fan frustration. Between the receivers, the coaches, the FO…there are quite a few bitter fans out there. Honestly, that amazes me. During the drought, I totally got it. I probably even get wrapped up in it. “You” are so focused on a SB you started hating the thing you love. The truth is, it probably won’t even get better if and when they do win. It will never be enough, because the problem isn’t the players or the coaches or the FO…it’s you and your perspective on football and life.

I was going to write a long post, but I guess I have a simpler question for you… What makes a football player better or worse than another football player, in your mind? Their draft slot, their production, their size, their 40 time? When you say “objectively” what exactly do you mean, because all I have seen is subjectivity. if we can leave this thread agreeing on anything, it should be the fact that ANYBODYS take on where the Bills WR rank in a season that hasn’t even happened yet is 100% subjective (ie an opinion) supported by whatever objective facts they deem appropriate (thus making it subjective). Because it is subjective…it can also be (shocker) wrong. And it happens A LOT in football. Like more than people are right if we are being honest. So why be so pressed?

I think this is probably my last post in the thread. For all your jabs at being realistic, you seem to be missing some very important basic points about football: - you might not care about things like the running game, defense or the cap, but football teams do. Everybody here makes fun of McDermott for talking about complimentary football, but that is what EVERY football coach in America worth a damn believes in. The key to Johnson, Shannahan and McVays whole systems are the run game fcol - Stefon Diggs (as well as Von, White and Poyer on defense) put us in a tough spot the last few years. Those were our big contract guys, our stars…and they all got hurt or didn’t want to be here. - We have generally been picking at the end of the first round for a while now. You have to get lucky to grab a dynamic guy in that spot. It can happen, sure…but the slam dunks are usually gone. Sure, the Bills could have traded up for Nabers (maybe), but it would have cost them A LOT of draft capital and just wasn’t realistic (or even possible potentially…if it’s so obvious then why would the other team agree?). Here is some realism for you. Our starting 5 targets are Kincaid, Cook, Shakir, Samuel and some combination of MVS/Coleman/Hollins/Claypool. Knox will likely get a bunch of snaps, too, but tbd on who comes off. Hamler, Isabella, Shorter…probably don’t make the team unless it is on the PS or they are undeniable. Say what you want about that starting 5, but all things considered (Diggs trade/dead cap, the turnover on defense, the cap situation heading into the offseason) that’s a workable recover group. The starters are fast and reliable. 4 of the starters have played for Brady. And most importantly, Josh likes them and seems happier than last season.

I left WR out specifically because we are talking about WR. The point is, the rest of the offense is pretty good. A rising tide lifts all boats. Football is a team sport. You don't just support your QB with WR.

I wouldn't say I am optimistic or pessimistic. I don't really have a prediction and I don't know if it will work out. I just see how it could, and I don't think it is that unreasonable. Listen, if the Bills were a bad team with a poor offensive line, a middling QB and zero recent success, I could understand a more cynical take on the matter. But we have a good offensive line, one of the best QBs in the NFL, and above average receiving threats at TE and RB. I understand your "realism" but I firmly believe that what you see as realism is just years of disappointment manifesting itself. For all the Bills success over the last 5 years, they don't really have anything to show for it and nothing they did this offseason screams championship on the surface. But, if you are honest with yourself, what was the big complaints about our receivers? Too small, too slow, and too many drops. Well, they didn't sign any pro bowlers...but they did get a lot bigger and faster and the catch rates are better (tbd if it stays that way). And they did that while eating a 31 million dollar cap hit instead of featuring Diggs. I just think it could be a lot worse and maybe you should see what happens first...There's plenty of time to be pissed about things you can't control.

Ok, I hear you... Let's talk about Chase Claypool for a minute. Former Second round pick. Had over 1000 yards and 13 TDs his senior year at ND. 9.98 RAS score (Same as AD Mitchell, who was tops in the 2024 class). First two years in the NFL he had just over 100 targets for over 800 yards each season. Then, Big Ben retires. Steelers draft Pickens. Claypool gets traded to the Bears who can't pass to save their lives. Then he gets traded again to Miami, who runs a ton of motion and doesn't really use a traditional X. Has a terrible year and is labeled a headcase. Maybe he is trash. But he is extremely talented trash. No injury history and still young. A guy like that could have significant impact on where our WR wind up at the end of the year. Realistically he could be a star or not make the team. High variance. Makes it hard to rate the Bills reliably. Their best case and worst case are wildly divergent. Worst case, nobody steps up and we are a team full of #3 receivers. Best case, we have one of the biggest and most athletic receiver cores in the NFL that dominates man coverage, especially in the playoffs when teams get grabby.

Let's start with Atlanta, since you named them. Mack Hollins was second on that team in catches and yards last season. He might not even see the field on this team. Pitts and Mooney had 1000 yard seasons in 2021, but haven't really come close since. Honestly, outside of Drake London, Pitts and Mooney (and I guess Rondale Moore from college)...I don't even really know anything about the other guys on their roster aside from the fact that they have like zero production and were late picks or undrafted. And yet, they are #16 on the list. So clearly the #1's are getting a lot of weight and London is seen as an up and comer who just needs a QB. I'd call TE a wash, I definitely think Samuel is better than Mooney, and the Bills go way deeper. So it really comes down to Drake London, I guess.

I'll tell you what, since you seem hellbent on this idea. Pick any team outside the Top 9 on Sharp's list and I will make a rational argument on why the Bills have a better receiver/TE group than that team. I looked at them and think it could be done.

Because you seem to be attached to this idea that it is the ONLY take, and that any notion to the contrary is some wild, homerish take. I personally take issue with the idea that the Bills WR group isn't talented. That's just false. Strictly from a physical perspective (using something like RAS score) I am certain they rank higher than 28, for example. Now, I haven't done all the legwork for that, so I am sure Ill have somebody tell me how bad a take that was...but of that projected top 6 I posted they have 2 guys that run under a 4.4 (Samuel, MVS), a few that were just over (Shakir and Claypool) and a couple of bigger guys that run 4.5 or 4.6 in Hollins and Coleman. They all can jump. The smallest guy is 5'11 and the lightest is 190. 4 or them are 6'3 or taller and over 200 lbs. Physically, they are impressive

I didn't dispute it...in fact, I said I understand why you would feel that way. I just also reminded you that most of the criteria that generated that opinion is only one way to look at it. Nobody is neutral. Everyone is bias.

I have never really had ANY subjective takes in this thread. Certainly not one that compares them directly to other teams. Mostly because I understand that there are several variables that go into a passing game. But, objectively speaking, here is what I know: The Bills projected 6 WR (Coleman, Samuel, Shakir, Claypool, MVS and Hollins) are considerably bigger and faster than last season, and their catch rates are generally better than the guys they are replacing. Better or worse is TBD, but they are certainly different. It could be a much better group than it looks like on paper is all I have ever said. They aren't a bunch of UDFAs or even late round picks. I don't know you from anyone, and you don't know me...why on earth would our rating matter? So you can argue with whatever stats or observations you think are important? You understand that there is no right answer, right?

2021 really shot us in the foot in this regard... Gabe had that big game against KC, Stef was hitting the weight room, McKenzie had that breakout game against the Patriots...I just don't think we thought we needed a guy, but we did draft Shakir. They were clearly wrong. In 2023 draft, they were clearly going to address it, but all the viable WR were taken ahead of the Bills so they took a TE instead. I looked, and aside from Puka I don't really see any other receivers they could have drafted instead of Torrence without trading up.

This is subjective, not objective. Objective - The Bills were the 28th least productive receiving core in 2023, based on yards (or whatever) Subjective - The Bills have the 28th best Wr core for 2024, based on their 2023 production (or whatever reason) the objective statement is a fact, the subjective statement is an opinion based on facts. What makes it subjective is your statement is based on evidence you have deemed important. You defined what productive means, what talented means, etc. those are opinions, not facts. That is why this thread is so many pages…it is full of opinions. Opinions are fine…everyone has them. This thread however, has been incredibly disrespectful…mostly because some opinions are being presented as objective facts.

I get why you think that. I get why articles say that. The Bills lost their two most productive receiving options and replaced them with guys that have either never come close to that level of production in the NFL, or haven’t recently for one reason or another. I know I’ll just get blasted for another bad take, but this happened last year, too. Everyone was PRESSED about LB and RT. Bernard and Brown were trash and the Bills didn’t care. We should have signed “insert overpriced vet here” Clearly, the doom and gloom takes at those positions were wrong, and yet here we are. I’m not saying you can’t or shouldn’t be skeptical, but at the end of the day, just remember it’s a subjective opinion, not an objective fact.

Bad takes or not, I come to this message board to talk about the bills, and every one of my posts in this thread was about the Bills receivers…no matter how dumb you think they are. Why on earth do you think it’s ok to act like that with people you don’t even know?

So you would trade all of our cap space, Jones, Epenesa and MVS for Hopkins? Let me ask this another way...If Hopkins was a great deal, why did he end up on the Titans? Why didn't the Chiefs sign him, for example?