Mikey152

Nobody is saying it isn’t true…just maybe a bit exaggerated, while in turn minimizing similar indirect contributions of other players. It starts to feel like a narrative. cooper cost a third round pick and his contract is dirt cheap. It was a great deal even if he is just a role player, especially if it is a role that was sorely needed. Where you are getting push back is when you try and spin it as an indictment against the team and the WR situation heading into the season, where they didn’t have a number 1 or any good receivers, because Cooper isn’t fitting your own criteria here in Buffalo. It feels hypocritical. but I get it…it isn’t really about WR at all. It’s about not trusting this team to get it done because they always fail.

This thread is like 200 pages long…subtle debate died long ago. but yes, the hyperbole was strong in that post and intentional. For me, this isn’t about being right or wrong…I couldn’t care less. It’s the negativity. As a wise poster once messages me "I'm not at all convinced that everything is going to work out well, but on the other hand, there's nothing wrong in thinking it should." The reality is, this thread was never really about WR. It’s about trusting (or not trusting) the people at one bills drive. My position is and always will be that one bills drive has a plan and it COULD work, not that it WILL. For whatever reason, there is a sizable number of posters on this message board that just cannot get on that train. I get they are frustrated, but at what point do you take a look in the mirror and realize you’re turning against your own team and fellow fans due to your anger?

This, right here, is the hypocrisy I am talking about. Amari gets TONS of credit for the offenses performance the last 8 weeks ( despite only playing in 6 games). His INDIVIDUAL PRODUCTION (snaps, targets, catches, yards, TDs) doesnt signal #1 receiver on this team, and they sure don’t signal # 1 we in the NFL. But, you know…he’s Amari Cooper. Hes making a huge difference you just can’t see it in the numbers. He dictates coverage, even when he is on the sideline he is so good. the rest of the receivers, though? Still trash. I mean, look at their numbers! They’re better than Amaris, sure, but that’s only because the whole team covers Cooper when he is on the field and they run the ball when he isn’t (and we all know WR have nothing to do with running the football). Amari Cooper is a good player. I am glad he is on the Bills..but this need to be right in your negativity is compromising your common sense. Regarding your charts from earlier…the offense also got better with Coleman and Kincaid out of the lineup. Do they make us worse? Or maybe, just maybe…it’s more complicated than a single variable.

Important is relative... Hollins, Knox, Anderson and Coleman dictates coverage just as much as a package with Cooper does, just in a different way. Put Cooper in for Hollins and it doesn't work as well. This was the whole point. All the receivers play a role on this team. Cooper didn't change that, he just majorly upgraded their weakest role player. Let me put it another way. Having a guy that can punish man coverage is a a weapon that helps the offense. Forcing the ball to said player to keep him happy or not having other options when he is covered/hurt holds a team back. That's really it. I didn't think Samuel could be 2020 Diggs, but I thought he could be second half of last year Diggs and the other guys got better. So now Cooper is second half of last year Diggs (without the crazy) and the rest of the guys are better and the offense is great.

Meh, depends on the look. Against man, probably. Against zone? Unlikely. Again, what you are describing is an important player...but I can tell you that I think they play better if Cooper is out than if Shakir is. I also think I'd take 2024 Hollins and Coleman over 2023 Davis and Diggs. Really, it was some combination of Samuel/MVS/Claypool et al, but yes. I think I (and the Bills) thought they could burn an aggressive defense with Samuel and MVS. Clearly that was wrong. But by the same token, we WERE right about something that seems to get lost in making that point. The idea was a good one, they just signed the wrong guy. Clearly this everybody eats philosophy has merit, and it really isn't made for a "true" #1 that commands 100+ targets either. I don't think Diggs would help like Cooper does, for example. Same threat, different attitude breaks the offense in a different way. And yes, Mack doesn't dictate coverage. But he does improve the run game and the RAC game significantly. It is not a coincidence that we have more long YAC and rushing plays this season. Downfield blocking is a big part of that.

Cooper was an indictment on Samuel and MVS, to a lesser extent..not the WR room or offensive philosophy. I think this would have been a very different thread if someone had said "This offense could work, but they're really gonna struggle against pressure man looks because CS and MVS aren't good enough there and Coleman is too young" Instead, most of what we saw in this thread was you need a #1 WR that gets 100 targets and 1000 yards to be successful.

I sort of a agree and sort of don't. I do think that Cooper plays an important role on the team, and raises the floor. But I don't think he is the go to guy on this offense. I'm not even sure he is the second or third guy. But that's just it...that don't really play like that anymore. All 5 skill guys are that guy in the right circumstances, and that's what makes them hard to defend.

Yes, indirect correlation...I get it, and I even agree. His presence keeps teams honest and lets Shakir operate against more zone coverage. That was likely Samuel's role and why most of Amari's snaps correlate to CS and not Keon, Mack or Khalil. The reason I find it amusing isn't because I think you are wrong...it's because that was the same argument for why guys like Mack Hollins are more valuable than their stats. The key is balance.

I think we are arguing different things. they can be deeper than last year without Cooper and better this year with him...those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I have definitely never said Amari Cooper makes us worse. Clearly he helps. But he isn't the #1 receiver on this team. He plays a role, and one that they clearly had a gap at thanks to the epic fail that was Curtis Samuel so far this season. I really hope it is his injuries.

How's this for a stat... The Bills have won every game where Khalil Shakir led the team in targets, and they have scored 30 in every game where he was first or second in targets (whole team, not just WR). The Bills have lost every game where Amari Cooper led the team in targets. They scored 30 nine times when he wasn't first or second in targets.

Cooper has played in 6 games...They have scored 30 in 11. Amari Cooper has outsnapped Mack Hollins in one game since he became a Bill...Week 8. That also happens to be the week Curtis Samuel missed. He was supposed to be their man beater, but for whatever reason it has failed, so they brought in a replacement. Is it good that with Cooper, the Bills have a guy that can win 1 on 1? Sure. That is a valuable skill and makes their offense harder to play against. But it isn't THE REASON it is hard to play against...if it was, Cooper would get way more snaps and targets. Cooper keeps teams honest, he doesn't make it go. Clearly I was wrong when I thought the Bills had a guy like that on the roster in MVS/Claypool/Samuel. They all failed to be that guy and I am glad Amari is on the team. But lets not get it twisted...he is an important piece, but not as important as the other pieces.

Serious question... Lets say you're right, and despite his limited snaps and targets, Cooper is having an impact on the passing game indirectly. Why was he 4th in snaps at WR the last two weeks, if he is truly a #1 WR and that impactful? What other #1 is 4th in snaps on their team? And what about the reverse? Do you not think that Hollins and Coleman are having similar impacts on the running game and Josh's efficiency? There is a reason they get more snaps than Cooper, and it isn't because they are better at getting open. If the only thing that mattered was the ability to get open, teams would play 5 WR most of the time. Of course that is ludicris, but so is the idea that WR only help the offense when they draw coverage or catch passes. I watched the Ravens game and the Houston game. The main reason the offense looked bad wasn't WR, it was offensive line. There were free rushers on A LOT of plays. Josh was sacked 3 times and pressured on almost half his drop backs against the Ravens, and it wasn't because he was holding on to the ball because nobody was open. There was clear miscommunication up front. Houston game was similar, and Josh forced things and played his worst game this season. The Bills did make a good move grabbing Cooper. It is clear that Samuel wasn't who they or I thought he would be this season against man.

Typical... Changing the argument to suit your needs is par for the course. Let me state this plainly for you before I move on from this thread for good. The point of this thread was that the WR room, despite the drop in name recognition, would be better than last year. That the offense would play better. The people who agreed believed that the more diverse skill set and selfless, team oriented mentality would outweigh the production gap. The non-believers were worried that without a true #1 (or two), the offense would struggle to move the football and be worse than last year. The graphs above compare the Bills with and without Amari Cooper...like it is some shock that adding a pro bowl WR made the offense better. But where is the comparison of the pre-Cooper Bills to last year? That first graph wasn't best in the league, but it sure wasn't the worst, either...I bet it was better than last season. Curtis Samuel was a flop for whatever reason. Coleman had growing pains then an injury. Amari Cooper fixes that. But it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't trade Hollins and Coleman for a healthy Diggs and Davis right now. That was the point of this thread...The WR group got better, even if it isn't "better". And that is true. It has been true all season. They are a better team with this roster. That trade was about Samuel falling off a cliff. Even the haters have been surprised by that. So you're claiming non-linear correlation? I find this funny, because this runs counter to the whole #1 WR theory, but whatever.

Who would he shadow on the 50%+ snaps where Cooper wasn't on the field last week? Against Detroit Cooper had the 4th most snaps AT RECEIVER and zero targets, but he is the reason we put up 48? Really? Amari Cooper is clearly a better WR than the guy he replaced (MVS), but to act like he was the key to unlocking this offense is just silly. Honestly, this offense looked fantastic when Kincaid and Coleman were out and Knox/Anderson were getting more snaps...perhaps we should cut them. Amari Cooper on last years team instead of Diggs, and this offense isn't this good. It's the line, it's the RBs, its the new WR all coming together. Amari isn't the only reason they have gotten better as the season has gone on, and its completely disingenuous to suggest as much

Correlation does not equal causation....