Zerovoltz

I am not a Rosen guy and have predicted that he will underwhelm. However, the Cardinals literally have been without ALL five starters on their oline most of the year. They have a couple guys starting who had been bagging groceries before getting the call. I’m not sure they have better personnel. I continue to believe Allen’s completion pct is a concern, but I am very open to the idea that more time, and an upgraded roster will help. The debate won’t be decided until next year when the Bills have invested in the roster like the Bears did for Trubisky this past offseason The “problem” is that the stat predictors all said his completion pct would be low. His completion pct is low. It’s THE entire issue around Allen then and it still is. It’s not as if people are nitpicking this issue. This is what the concern was coming in. Mahomes. ? If if anyone cares to refute these points, your argument carries more weight when it includes graphic depictions of big. Glasses.......and voluminous........hair.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/pass/buffalo-bills/season/13/josh-allen/ALL529264/2018/13/pass

the Washington Redskins. Tennesee Titans. Jacksonville Jaguars.

...umm....interesting take on Manual needing "too much work".....when you are in a thread talking about Josh Allen....a guy who by all accounts was ready to go day 1.

I've certainly done that here from time to time. I post on other issues that aren't even QB related as well. ....I've not hidden the fact I showed up here after the "trade" because I've wanted to keep my finger on the pulse of the Bills fan base AND see how things developed, including the trades and drafting of your QB, Allen, and how that's been going. I've also put it out there I think Allen isn't going to develop...not that he couldn't, not that he isn't an incredible athelete...I continue to think it's every bit worth while to get him some better weapons this offseason...see if you can upgrade your line...he has talent...I am skeptical about his ability to ever consistantly be an accurate thrower....and that I think it's a very important attribute....but you get this guy the right mix around him and the right kind of offense...he's totally viable....my last several posts here have been about many fans unwillingness to even acknowledge that the kid has an accuracy issue...and it isn't "just" getting better. .....and you don't need to hear that or anything else from a Chiefs fan...I get it... But I'm here and I enjoy the conjecture....and unelss someone kicks me out, I'll keep posting my thought on this and other stuff here. This is a good take.

Zay Jones had his best game as a Bill with Matt Barkley throwing At him 11 targets, 8 catches. 93 yards and a TD. On the road at the Jets. Foster had 103 in that game. Barkley has SEVEN career starts and had just signed the week before. It’s one game but Barkley completed 15 of 25, right on his career completion pct of 60%. His passes were not short. He averaged over 10 YPA. That isn’t dink and dunk. I continue to be amazed that so many people keep writing off Allen’s accuracy issues to everything but Allen himself. By by the way, according to PFF, Allen has more time to throw in the pocket than any QB in the NFL. Barkley played behind the same line. Allen is a serious threat to run and make things happen. He is fast. He is a gamer. He is tough. He has a strong arm. He can demonstrate all of this on a field and you can measure all of those with stats or the eye test. He has a well documented, well scouted, well known accuracy issue that you can measure with stats or see with your eyes. some people don’t like math that doesn’t fit what their blurry vision tells them can’t be true.

Denver has lost a few games they should have won....lost at home to Houston 19-17 HORRIBLE clock managment and play calling in the two minute drill meant they had to try a 63 yard field goal to win....and they had already missed one earlier in that game.....they lost to the Rams by 3. 23-20. They beat the Chargers. They beat the Steelers They run very well, and their defense is fast and physical. They present matchup problems for teams like the Rams and Chiefs....and Chargers and Steelers...holding all of them to under their scoring averages...you catch them on a day when Keenum actually has a good game and you are done. Now...having lost Sanders, that may be more than they can overcome...they need everyone healthy and playing at a high level...but when they do...they are a tough out. The 6-6 is a bit of a mirage.....and also...somehow, the Broncos are one of those odd teams that plays to the competition...the Jets blew them out somehow earlier this year in New York. ....regardless... If signing KB for chump change, and plopping his fat ass on our bench means he isn't in Denver possibly playing hard and helping them in a time where they need a WR...then GOOD. worth the pocket change it cost.

Denver is to KC what New England is to Buffalo. Believe me...the ONLY team in the AFC that the Chiefs don't want to see again this year is the Broncos.

Let me try and seaparte Watkins from his contract and talk about the two separately. The contract is HORRIBLE. KC paid out WR 1 money for the guy KNOWING he would be the 4th option, 3rd option at best on this team. That's just not smart use of resources. The player has been...OK. He's hurt too much for the money...but when he's played he's been allright...had a few big games. IF ....IF he were the no.1 option he'd put up some strong numbers...probably not worth the contract even in that scenario...but he's been ok. If Hill were to miss time Watkins would probably look more valuable to us than he has thus far. I haven't seen enough to justify the contract..and frankly, we could have saved that money and spent it elsewhere and signed someone else much cheaper this past off season...in hindsight...I would have liked for us to have kept Albert Wilson (he blew out his ACL so maybe it's better we didn't) ....Anyhow...not worth the money on Watkins....he has been, more or less what people said he is....an intriquing prospect that is hurt often and needs volume to have maximum impact. He hasn't broken any big plays. Our Defense .....is interesting in that we are at or very near the top of the NFL in sacks. Two very good edge rushers in Ford and Houston and a very good D Tackle in Chris Jones. You'd think that having this kind of talent up front would mask some problems elsewhere..but it hasn't. Having watched every KC game...we may well have the worst ILB pairing in the NFL. Reggie Ragland looked decent his first year here..he SUCKS. ....and maybe he needs to be in a different scheme where he just goes downhill all the time, but in our scheme the ILB are asked to read and react. Ragland needs to have no responsibilities in coverage at all and just go....even when he gets moving off the snap...he is easily blocked and can't shed. A bust. We signed Anthony Hitchens from the Cowboys for big Money in the offseason....unlike Ragland..Hitchens looked pretty good in Dallas last year....but playing in this read and react system...he also SUCKS. He is asked to read and then cover RB and TE...and he isn't good at it...he was a good sideline to sideline defender in Dallas and the reports were he wasn't good at coverage there either....just a really good pursuit player. .....because he has to read the play and often cover someone, on run plays..he is slow to identify and thus slow to move...and gets swallowed up by O lineman. His Contract is AWFUL and the way it's structured, we are stuck with him for 2 more seasons. They did draft Dorian O'Daniel from Clemson, and when he has played ILB..he HAS looked pretty good...good in coverage...quicker to react and has shown some ability to shed blockers...but they are reluctant to play him...he should be starting. Ragland should be benched. The secondary ins't very good. Orlando Scandrick is old, but has been ok....dropped what would have been the game clinching INT vs the Rams...just flat out dropped it...right in his hands. Steven Nelson is ok. Our safties are OLD and SLOW. Been waiting on Eric Berry to come back all year...he MIGHT finaly play this week...they need him. Because of the sacks and turnovers...and the D is OK to live with even if the numbers in yards and points don't always look good..they do produce big plays.

I said it already..but yeah....I don't have high hopes about this....the Chiefs made a low risk, low money investment in a guy who at one time, a long time ago, showed a little....fine...we paid out some pennies to kick the tires...I read this board all the time and have read ALL the stuff you find folks have posted about Benjamin..and I have watch a few of the games....(ever since the Trade and the drafting of Allen, I can't get enough of watching the Bills....love the passion of the fan base here...and am glad to be on this board..great place to talk football) ......I think KC sees this as SUPER cheap depth....and anything else would be gravy....contract just for the rest of this year....I'm not hoping for or expecting much.

i agree with you....this isn't exciting news to me....due in large part to me following this board...I might be the best informed KC fan about this guy. SO MANY KC fans see a name they know and instantly "LETS SIGN HIM, HES A BEAST! (on a side note, the tendancy of the lower IQ among my Chiefs fan base, LOVE the term Beast. ugh.) ....KC fan base has a hard time separating Madden from real life (this goes for salary cap issues as well...SIGN EVERYONE! TRADE FOR EVERYONE!) Yav....not sure you have any sort of credibility with your incredibly horrible Pat Mahomes predictions and takes.

A simple glance at Case Keenums numbers this year tell enough of the story....or go watch some of their games...Minnesota was right to let him walk. He's not been good at all this year. .....He has targets and a good run game....Emmanual Sanders is pro bowl caliber WR...The traded Demarryous Thomas, but the Rookie Sutton has impressed...and they have a very strong running game....that offense isn't void of talent. Sanders just tore his ACL in practice yestarday, so he's done....and they did claim Holmes, the other WR you released. Again..as far as Benjamin playing TE....and you telling me he can't (and I believe you) ....well, again, great...our second string TE also can't play TE...so if Benjamin has step into that role, he'll fit right in.

Even though we have beaten Denver twice this year already...they have really played us tight...they are a touch matchup for us...they also did have held the Rams to low totals on offense and nearly beat them...they beat the Chargers....Denver has a below average QB holding back the rest of that team. As far as Benjamin being a TE, our current back up TE, Demetrious Harris...already can't block and never plays as big has his size either...he's been here 4 years already and hasn't progressed....If Benjamin sucks...that's fine..he sucks and will have cost us next to nothing....if Harris were to get hurt...well...we appear to have his crappy identical twin on the roster now.

This is the only reason for KC to sign him if we did it to "help" our own team. KC is thin at TE after Kelce. They may well have done this to keep him from Denver as well. Watkins is apparently currently healthy so this signing, if it's about Watson at all, wasn't about Watson this week. Frankly, a good many KC fans are overly happy about this signing and think we are getting the guy who excelled in Carolina, and not the hot mess he's been in Buffalo this year. If he works hard here and makes a contribution here and NOT in Denver, then I'm good with it....but really not a big deal in my opinion. Best Case is that he moves to TE and does well, makes himself into a nice thick tall red zone target....worst case...he sits on the bench and does nothing....not costing us much...and he isn't in Denver.

I don't suppose this head to head comparison of each of these guys 1st 2 NFL seasons means anything to anyone here. I threw in Vick because unlike the other QB on this list, Allen is a weapon as a runner, and his running stats thus far are practically equal to Vick in his first 2 NFL seasons. It is remarkable that Vick and Allen also have nearly the same completions and attempts on a per game basis through a similar number of games at this point in their careers. Would you be happy if Allen had a VICK like career? Per Game Passing Rushing Rk Player From To Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD 1 Josh Allen 2018 2018 12.6 23.9 152.9 0.6 0.9 2.9 22.6 7.1 48.6 0.5 2 Jim Kelly* 1986 1987 19.1 32.1 228.3 1.5 1.0 2.5 20.3 2.5 11.9 0.0 3 J.P. Losman 2004 2005 8.9 17.9 105.5 0.6 0.7 2.1 15.2 2.5 13.0 0.0 4 EJ Manuel 2013 2017 11.4 19.7 125.6 0.7 0.5 1.6 9.9 3.2 11.3 0.1 5 Michael Vick 2001 2002 12.2 23.2 161.8 0.8 0.5 2.3 13.9 6.3 46.3 0.

These same variables apply to every QB do they not? If we can’t apply any measurable metrics to a qb then what can we apply?

What numbers would you like to use to measure his progress as a passer and how much time do you think is enough to see results?

I’m giving those guys as examples of prospects who “just needed to be more accurate”. Allen is an incredible prospect. More gifted than those guys. The comparison is that NFL people and fans thought it was just a matter of more time more reps and more coaching and the accuracy, passing efficiency, was going to happen, like a forgone conclusion. most of the fans on this board speak of Allen exactly this same way. More time more reps and better supporting cast has been the failing formula to improve accuracy for decades. Many here seem to think success is right around the corner.

.....the argument that The difference between Allen being a 60% thrower and a 55% thrower is 1.5 passes completed if he attempts 30 passes. This is is mathematically correct but you can apply this to every QB. Somehow others manage to consistently complete at a higher pct despite also having to throw a ball away, have the receiver drop the pass etc. quarterbacks not not named Josh Allen have higher completion pct with the same group. my point remains. Allen is an incredible prospect with lots of gifts and talent and he has a very substantial set of data to look at that suggests he isn’t accurate and that it is far from a given he ever will be. My point isn’t that I think Allen is awful or that I think he can’t improve or that given better supporting cast improvement can’t happen. It is not a given. Another example of a guy with a great arm, gifts etc was Kyle Boler. A guy coaches thought wasn’t accurate due to supporting cast at college and who they could coach up and surround with talent and fix him. There are a lot of Kyle Bolers. Accuracy, efficiency whatever you want to call it... but it is HARD to teach. Making quick reads, and then the proper pass don’t tend to be things that can be improved much of at all by coaching or better players around. ive said in many other threads here that given his incredible natural gifts and his football upbringing he is worthwhile. I can buy the argument that he was a farm kid that never was coached up as a kid, as a high school player or in college.... its not a given and if Allen does develop into a legit franchise QB he will have beaten long odds and the Bills leadership will deserve to be praised as geniuses.

This is fair. Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument. The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill. My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen. If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about. The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not. I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is. He is a tremendous prospect. I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be. That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement. The accuracy is is a concern and a problem. It was on draft day and it still is.

I agree Allen goes downfield more often than many QB do....and having watched Alex Smith for years...I agree, high completion PCT isn't the be all end all for accuracy. Smith comleted a TON of short easy passes. Accuracy is more than completion PCT....as stated by others here. .....So, even given all this....isn't it worth asking then, if you KNOW Allen can only complete "X" pct of deeper passes and you believe he'd complete more if you called a screen or slant or two...wouldn't someone in all this time, figured out that it was worthwhile to call a short pass for the guy here and there? .....what good does it do to throw it farther downfield if you don't complete those? Certainly he doesn't connect often enough to justify doing it as much as he does....he doesn't throw TD's at a high enough rate to justify it....he has a high turnover rate that might go down....wouldn't it be optimal to have him throw shorter more often?

Why did the two QB under Coach Bohl, who were before Allen have signifigantly higher completion pcts?

.....so that kind of leads me back to my point to begin with...if Allen is destined to be accurate...why wasn't anyone able to fix him in HS? in JUCO? At Wyoming (where he had the same coaches as Carson Wentz) ? It's not just going to suddenly happen....and I don't know how you make it happen or what coach you need etc..or maybe the right cast....If it were easy, if were bound to happen....it would happen a lot more often than it does for other talented athletes...like a Vick etc etc.

I agree....it has happend...it can happen...but it isn't typical...it isn't usual...the numbers were all over the place at draft time about college QB who had poor accuracy in college almost never improved much or at all in the pros. From what I have seen...and what I have read...Allen is every bit the guy the scouting reports said...and he has a LONG way to go to be consistanly accurate. ...that doesn't mean I am saying he sucks...it doesn't mean I am saying he isn't worth developing....quite the opposite...I'm just saying that improving accuracy is HARD TO DO and that it doesn't just happen because over time the switch just goes on....we'll know when he strings 4 games or better of 60% plus if he's getting there or not.

I absolutely do! I agree....very very very RAW....he's supposed to take time. You guys are all arguing at me like I am telling you it can't happen. I HOPE IT DOES! .....I am pointing out that a good many of you folks here speak about Allens accuracy issue like it will just get better as time passes...as he has more reps...if his supporting cast is better...ETC ETC.....when I bring up Tebow...I do so to demonstrate that everything they ever tried to fix his accuracy never worked...he got reps, he got coaching, he had a good supporting cast and a good defense....I am rooting for Allen to do it....I think the task at hand is DIFFICULT. Improving accuracy is hard...and big improvements from college to pros are not typical. My gripe, my point is that MANY posters kind of just write it off like it's bound to be better as he gets more reps, time passes, etc....it is not inevitable...it will be Allen overcoming the the odds, and beating back conventional wisdom IF he gets better......A lot of rookie QB's come in and struggle...but a good many of them had demonstrated accuracy in College....Baker Mayfiled had a horrible day today...he was a 71% thrower in college...it is reasonable to expect he;ll be accurate in the pros....he has demonstrated accuracy over a long period of time...it is reasonable to expect he will develop into an accurate NFL QB (that doesn't mean he will, but he's shown accuracy and shown that he has progressed in being more accurate as time passed)