SoTier

Culpepper was coming off a devastating knee injury and wasn't fully healed even in TC. That the Vikings went with Brad Johnson over Culpepper should have been a red flag ...

Excellent take. I think this may be the real issue with Rivers. He likely needed a "QB whisperer" coach like Reid or Payton or Reich, which he's never had. Rivers is the perfect example of how a QB's tendency to make poor decisions can impact team success even when a team has a load of talent and even when the QB has all the physical talent that a great QB needs. I think Marino's success was compromised because Shula essentially abandoned the run game and totally relied on Marino's passing.

Highly unlikely. And now, with McDermott's Bills winning 10 games, clinching a playoff berth with 2 games remaining with the AFCE title realistically possible, and making the playoffs twice in 2 seasons, it's fair to say that McDermott has accomplished more than Marrone as a HC. Back in July, that wasn't the case.

I didn't say he was a better coach. I said that McDermott hadn't accomplished as much as Marrone had as a HC. When I wrote that McDermott had 15-17 coaching record, 1 winning season and a play off loss while Marrone had a record of 31-35 with 2 winning seasons and 2 playoff wins. Barry Switzer took over a talent loaded Cowboys team in 1994, took them to the playoffs 3 straight years, and won a Super Bowl in 1995. His coaching record was 40-24 over 4 seasons but I don't think that even the most die hard Cowboys fan considers him a great HC, just a lucky one.

Sorry, dude, but McDermott has not accomplished more than Marrone at present. Since the Bills have not yet clinched a ten win or a playoff berth, things could still go south for the Bills. It's not likely but manure happens. That's not even counting McDermott coaching the Bills to 2 playoff wins.

Come back later. McDermott has not yet coached a team to more than 9 wins but his 2017 team did make the playoffs, so he's accomplished more than Mularkey. However, Marrone coached Jacksonville to 10 wins, made the playoffs, and has 2 playoff wins, so McDermott hasn't accomplished more than Marrone.

Guys... I said that Rivers was the GOAT of coacher killer QBs, so yeah, the thread title is sort of a joke. Great QBs are expected to have success in critical situations, but Rivers has long been regarded as "great" by many even though he's largely been unsuccessful in critical situations, whether in key regular season games or in the playoffs.

I think that even Bortles, Winston, and Mariota had their options picked up, so you are dead on.

Do they really? Jones looked good early on but the Giants have lost ten games in a row since winning their first 2 games under Jones who hasn't demonstrated much to separate him from other promising young QBs taken high in the draft, a few of whom succeeded but most of whom failed.

This is how I view Rivers, too, and why I view him as a "coach killer". In his early years, the Chargers were loaded with talent. Schottenheimer was fired after the 2006 season, after the Chargers went 14-2 in the regular season but went one and done in the divisional round against NE after Rivers went 14 for 32 for 230 yards, 0 Tds, 1 INT, and Pro Bowl K Nate Kaeding missed a 54 yard FG at the end of the game. GOAT of Coach Killing QBs. Brady -- and Peyton -- aren't in that conversation at all. Stafford has never had a truly great team around him. Rivers did early in his career. The Chargers went to the playoffs 4 straight times between 2006 and 2009, including a 14 win season in 2006 and a 13 win season in 2009.

This was originally posted in the thread on 2019 HCs likely to get axed: It got me to thinking about how Phillip Rivers continually puts up big stats -- and that he's frequently mentioned as a likely future HOFer -- but his teams seems to always disappoint. In his 14 seasons as a starter, Rivers has quarterbacked the Chargers to only 6 playoff appearances and only 5 playoff wins in 11 games. In those 11 playoff games, Rivers threw 14 TDs and 10 INTs. Rivers led only 1 4th quarter comeback and 1 game winning drive in the playoffs. Even when the Chargers have been loaded with talent as they were early in Rivers' career, they failed to live up to expectations by going 1 and done after going 14-2 in the regular season or barely making the playoffs at 8-8 despite Rivers leading the league in TDs (34) and QB rating. Rivers has also led the NFL in INTs twice -- 18 in 2014 (31 TDs) with the Chargers going 9-7 (made playoffs) and 21 in 2016 (33 TDs) with the Chargers going 5-11. Plus, Rivers threw 21 TDs and 15 INTs with Chargers winning 11 games (made playoffs) in 2007; 27 TDs and 20 INTs in 2011 with the Chargers winning 8 games; and 26 TDs and 15 INTs in 2012 with the Chargers winning 7 games. There have always seemed to be excuses for Rivers like a rash of injuries to key players or never having good crowd support because so many opponents' fans filled their temp home in Carson. AFAIK, there's never really been any serious thought among the Chargers FO to move on from him until this year. Rivers has outlasted three HCs -- Marty Schottenheimer, Norv Turner, Mike McCoy -- and Anthony Lynn may be the latest victim of Rivers' special ability to come up short when he needs to whether in the regular or post season. Under Lynn, Rivers seemed to have found new life as a QB, but it seems he's relapsed into his old ways: so far this season, Rivers has thrown 20 TDs and 15 TDs and the Chargers have won 5 of 13 games and are again out of the playoffs. They have lost all of their 8 games by 1 TD or less IIRC. Generally, the idea of a QB who's a "coach killer" is the mediocre guy who's just good enough for the HC to keep thinking that his QB can actually impove "with one more piece" whatever that might be. Rivers, though, has seemed to look good throughout his career -- except, of course, when he really needed to step up and throw a pass to one of his own teammates to win or set up the win. He may be the GOAT of coach killer QBs.

Hold the Bills offense to 10 points or less, get 2 FGs from their offense, and a defensive/ST TD? While I think the Bills D can handle the Steelers' offense, I also think that Pitts D can handle the Bills offense as well. The Pitts D has forced turn overs with regularity since acquiring Minkah Fitzpatrick -- and they certainly have scored more defensive TDs than the Bills D. The Bills ST are below average while the Steelers ST are very good. The Heintz Field crowd is always a big advantage for the Steelers.

DING! DING! We have a winner!!! I have been saying this for a while now. Beasley and Brown are nice additions but we need more -- at least two or three guys among the WRs, TEs, and RBs who are significant upgrades over who we have now not named Beasley, Brown or Singletary. Allen has made tremendous strides compared to where he was at the end of last season, and he's continued to improve throughout the season so he still hasn't reached his ceiling, but the Bills don't have enough offensive talent to help him move to the next level, from competent to good. They need to acquire more for next season.

The downside is that the Bills need to add offensive skill players, improve their OL and add young players to their defense to replace aging guys like Hughes and Alexander. They need these players no matter who they have playing QB. As NO, KC, Indy, and Pitt have demonstrated this season, a solid team and good coaching can save a team's season even if the starting QB doesn't play for all or most or some of the season.

This. The Bills need to give the QB they have a big, fast, sure-handed WR and upgrades at TE, RB, and OL rather than wasting draft capital chasing after an over-hyped collegiate QB. Maybe draft a QB on day 3 to develop into a backup ... or sign an UDFA QB from a small college if they can find a kid with some potential.

I think that Josh Allen can certainly be a successful NFL QB, perhaps even a QB who leads the Bills to one or more Super Bowls. I simply don't think he's as talented as Lamar who is a very special talent. That's not a knock on Allen, it's just a recognition of how good Jackson is. I was simply pointing out that many Bills fans are using a double standard when predicting the futures of both Jackson and Allen. Except for yards, Jackson has significantly better passing stats than Allen, yet Bills fans keep touting Allen as a future franchise QB while claiming that Jackson is only a mediocre passer despite his having a QB rating of 109.2 over 13 games while Allen's QB rating is 85.8 over that same number of games. The only regular starting QBs with better QB ratings than Jackson are Ryan Tannehill, Kirk Cousins, and Drew Brees plus rookie Drew Lock who has had only 3 starts. Jackson's 7.7 yards per attempt puts him ahead of future HOF QBs Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers, and is within the usual YPA expected of top passers (8.5-7.5 ypa). I think Jackson is much more than a mediocre passer at this point in his career, and probably has a much higher ceiling than any of his critics think. OTOH Allen has very statistically mediocre passing stats, although that doesn't mean that he's doomed. He started far behind the other QBs in his draft class because he suffered from poor coaching in college, and the Bills didn't help him much as a rookie by not providing him with a competent, experienced QB coach or an NFL caliber OL and receiving corps last season. His improvement since last season has been spectacular, and he's continued to improve throughout this season, especially when it comes to his decision making. I think Allen still has a lot of untapped potential that the Bills can help him realize by providing him with upgrades to the OL, RBs, and receivers (both WRs and TEs). Allen really needs a big, fast sure-handed receiver as well as more commitment by the OC to the running game (which means that the Bills NEED better RBs than Gore and Yeldon).

The Steelers D is what is most worrisome since the Bills offense has not played well against good defenses.The Steelers generate a good pass rush with only four rushers, and they not only force turnovers with some regularity, they've also capitalized on them. The Bills OL didn't hold up well against the Ravens pass rush, and against Pitt, Allen's ability to escape the rush may be compromised by his bad ankle. He's not likely to make many designed QB runs either which really limits the Bills running game. The Bills absolutely have to take care of the ball if they want to win this game. On the offensive side for Pitt, Pouncey is back from his suspension for his part in the melee with the Browns, and both Juju Smith-Schuster and James Conner are likely back from injury and expected to play. Oh, yeah, and Heintz Field is a hostile environment for visiting teams.

Despite being down to their third string QB, the Steelers are 8-5. Four of their losses were @Pats, to Seahawks, @Niners, and to the Ravens (0T), and all came in their first five games. Since their OT loss to the Ravens, the Steelers have gone 7-1, their one loss to division rival Browns in Cleveland. They've gone 3-0 with Hodges simply because Hodges has played smart football within his limitations. The Bills can't afford to sleep on the Steelers.

This is the same thing some savants said about Russell Wilson back in 2012 and 2013. More importantly, Jackson is already a significantly better passing QB than Josh Allen, so if Jackson's doomed to be a backup if he can't run where does that leave Allen whether he can run or not?

You "still don't get it" because you refuse to even try ... or you live under a rock and only come out to watch the Bills play so you are totally ignorant of what's going on in the rest of the NFL. Denying that Lamar Jackson is a great player and that the Baltimore Ravens are among the very best teams in the NFL isn't going to make Josh Allen and the Bills better. FYI, since week 4, the Ravens haven't lost a game and won 9 straight games, including wins over the 8-5 Steelers, 10-3 Seahawks, 1.20-3 Patriots, 8-5 Texans, 8-5 Rams, 11-2 Niners, and 9-4 Bills -- seven teams with winning records, six of which are currently in playoff slots. Jackson has been instrumental in all those wins, some of which were major blowouts of their opponents. FTR, Jackson is a better QB than Allen. Jackson's passing stats are significantly better than Allen's: 66.3% completions, 28 passing TDs, 6 INTs, 2677 yards, 109.2 passer rating versus 59.8% completions, 17 passing TDs, 8 INTs, 2737 yards, 85.8 passer rating. Jackson has rushed for 1017 yards. 6.7 AVG, and 7 TDs -- good for 9th most rushing yards -- while Allen has rushed for 439 yards, 4.6 AVG, and 8 TDs. If you can't appreciate the special talent that great young QBs like Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes or Deshaun Watson bring to the game, then you aren't a football fan. You're simply a jealous Bills fan who has to tear down other players to pretend that the Bills lesser talents are "just as good".

My guess is that they are whether they post those excuses or not. It seems that some of them feel a real need to excuse the shortcomings of the Bills offense by denying opponents' good play. Guess what, good defenses can make even great QBs look ordinary. Watch the lowlights of Aaron Rodgers versus the Niners D last month. Great QBs, though, usually manage to do just enough to win even against good defenses. Jackson's passing game has improved from where it was last season at least as much Allen's has, and that's an impressive accomplishment for both. However, Jackson has already developed into a better QB than Allen at this point. That doesn't mean that one or both are destined for failure and success. One or both could stop developing like Vick or Kaepernick or continue to develop like QBs like Brady, Brees, Rodgers or Wilson have done. Let me guess, you're still not convinced that Mahomes and Watson are franchise QBs, either. Because some of us don't only watch the Bills ...

I was there, and I still feel the pain of that butt whooping, too.

Point 1 - We don't know if Allen or Jackson are at their "ceilings" yet. At some point in the future, we should be able to determine that they are, but at present they are both second year QBs who've made excellent progress. In fact, they have both made excellent progress as second year starters, but Jackson's progress has been spectacular. Point 2 - What we saw yesterday was a 2nd year QB who threw three TD passes to power his team to a win in a game when the defense limited the Ravens' running game to about 120 yards and another 2nd year QB who struggled against a fierce and persistent pass rush. Point 3 - The Ravens don't have outstanding WRs, but they have a bevy of outstanding TEs. They regularly use 3 TE sets as opposed to 3 WR sets. Is that offense viable long term? Maybe not but so far, no team has been really successful in shutting them down ... and yeah, winning masks everything.

Jackson threw 3 TD passes against the Bills top rated pass offense, including a beautiful 61-yard bomb to Haden Hurst. It seems to me that that creates a new "book" on Jackson: if you stop Jackson as a runner, he can still beat you with his arm.

. I don't think that the Bills win this game. The Steelers are exactly the kind of team that the Bills haven't been able to beat this season with their strong pass rush and penchant for creating take aways, and going into Heinz Field, well, it doesn't bode well. I've been watching the Steelers all year, and I think Bills fans who are dismissing them because of Hodges are making a big mistake. Their D is easily good enough to hold the Bills offense to 1 TD and 2 or 3 FGs. They terrorize OLs and consequently, QBs. The addition of Fitzpatrick has transformed that unit, turning them into a TO machine. Hodges has been good playing within his limitations. As we've seen several times this season, well coached rookies/young QBs with good support can string together a bunch of wins until DCs figure them out.