SoTier

Numbers don't tell the full story. The QBs I mentioned, except for Lamar Jackson, all were/are considered top NFL QBs over their careers. They all had significant accomplishments either personally or team-wise as rookies/sophomores. While Josh Allen made significant improvement as a sophomore, neither his personal performance nor the team's performance qualify him to join the group I listed. More than anything else, I think he needs to improve his decision making. Great QBs consistently make the right decision, especially when the game is on the line. I think that Allen has proven himself to be a competent NFL QB, but he needs to step up significantly in order to be considered a "franchise QB". I think that Allen's ability to understand and process what he sees quickly and accurately is the real key to his success. I generally agree with this but it's simply untrue that the Bills "lost" Woods, Hogan, Gilmore, and Goodwin. "Lost" implies that the Bills were constrained by something -- like the salary cap -- that prevented them from re-signing these players. The Bills chose to not re-sign these players after their rookie contracts, primarily because not re-signing top DBs, WRs, and RBs and replacing them with cheaper rookie contract players was a Bills policy under Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon. It's why the Bills frequently drafted these same positions high in the draft so frequently, and it was a big reason why the Bills simply spun their wheels for almost two decades. Pushing for the backup QB to replace the starter is a universal response of any fan base to crappy QB play on the part of the starter. If Bills fans seem more prone to it than other fan bases, it's because the Bills have had pretty crappy QB play for most of their history -- and especially since Jim Kelly retired.

Sorry to rain on your parade with facts, dude, but the Bills were NOT "moribund" before Allen became the starter since they went 9-7 in 2014, 8-8 in 2015, 7-9 in 2016, and 9-7 in 2017, including making the playoffs despite McDermott and Beane industriously dismantling the offense beginning in 2017. The Bills offense under Allen in 2019 was only marginally improved over the offenses the Bills fielded under Fitzpatrick, Orton and Taylor -- and the Bills have still not won a playoff game since 1995.

Excuse me but you'll notice I didn't include Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Robert Griffin or Andy Dalton, all QBs who took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. The QBs I mentioned were/are among the best QBs in the NFL and they all demonstrated that their quality early on. My point is that it's not "unrealistic" to expect outstanding QBs to show their stuff early on as several posters on this thread keep using as an excuse for Bills fans to not expect Allen to play better this season.

I think that your agenda in this thread is and has been to deflect any and all criticism of Allen or the Bills by continually accusing posters who raise issues with Allen or the Bills of essentially not being good Bills fans. It's getting to be as old as you claim you are. I rest my case about your agenda. You persist in blaming fans daring to criticize the Bills no matter how deep into the manure pile you have to dive to do it. FTR, Jack Kemp's career was entirely in the AFL when it was clearly a lesser league than the NFL. While Kemp was a three time AFL all star/pro bowl player, Daryl Lamonica, who sat behind Kemp for 4 seasons before he was traded to Oakland in 1967, became a 2 time AFL all star/pro bowler and All Pro, including in his very first year in Oakland. Lamonica then went on to be a 2 time NFL Pro Bowler. He was the Raiders' starting QB for 6 seasons and led them to 6 playoff seasons, including a Super Bowl appearance in 1967. It seems to me that maybe those fans that wanted Lamonica over Kemp were smarter than Ralph Wilson. Exactly this. I didn't like the Bills drafting Allen because IMO he wasn't a good enough prospect coming out of college to be worth what they gave up to get him. However, what really, really fries me is that after giving up a fortune to get Allen, the geniuses running the Bills -- that would be Beane and McDermott under Russ Brandon's -- and maybe Terry Pegula's -- "money ball" philosophy -- failed to support him. He was set up for failure in 2018 since the Bills didn't even bother to hire a bonafide QB coach for him, something for which there was absolutely no excuse. I think the firing of Russ Brandon in May 2018 resulted in Beane being freed from having to conform to strict "money ball" limits, and that was why he was able to successfully rebuild much of the offense in 2019 -- including replacing most of the offensive coaching staff and adding a real QB coach -- and at least give Allen a fighting chance to become a franchise QB rather than another failed QB. This season it's on Allen to prove himself.

What exactly makes a FO type inherently more reliable/trustworthy/truthful than a media type? Honesty and integrity depends upon the individual's personal values not the kind of job he/she holds -- or what level that job is.

The Bills' FO and HC's actions in 2018 are hardly "ancient history" that have no bearing on their evaluations going forward, especially if Allen and/or the team don't take their next steps this season or next. . Beane and McDermott have managed to make the playoffs twice in 3 seasons and they've actually won 10 games in a single season for the first time in this century, but they only have two poor losses in the wild card round to show for that. When -- if -- the Bills become a perennial playoff team and bonafide SB contender under Beane and McDermott with Allen as their QB then their repeated errors in 2018 will cease to matter. It's hardly "unrealistic expectations" for QBs who are something special to show that talent early. The Allen cheerleaders on this thread like to pretend that great QBs putting in outstanding performances very early in their careers is a recent phenomenon, but it's not. 1999 - Peyton Manning took the Colts to the AFCE division title as a sophomore. 2001 -Tom Brady took the Pats to a Lombardi in his first year as a starter. 2005 - Ben Roethlisberger took the Steelers to a Super Bowl win in his second season. 2008 - Matt Ryan took the Falcons to the playoffs as a rookie. 2012 -Andrew Luck led the Colts to the playoffs as a rookie and just about every year that he was healthy afterward. 2013 - Russell Wilson led the Seahawks to a Super Bowl win as a sophomore after taking them to the NFC title game as a rookie. 2017 - Carson Wentz was the leading candidate for MVP in his sophomore season before injury sidelined him. 2018 - Mahomes was the league MVP in his first year as a starter and took the Chiefs to the AFC Championship and Deshaun Watson led the Texans to the playoffs as a sophomore after playing in only 7 games as rookie because of injury. 2019 - Lamar Jackson, from the same class as Allen and taken 22 spots later at the very end of the first round, was an almost unanimous choice for MVP. Not all great/elite QBs find success in their first or second years in the league -- Brees and Rodgers are two that come to mind immediately -- but by the time they've had two or three years as starters, if they aren't top NFL QBs, they aren't likely to become so. Bortles, Winston, and Mariota are prime examples. We're seeing more young QBs excellent (or fail) earlier now simply because teams are more willing to play their young QBs rather than have them sit behind a starter for a season or two.

Totally agree. GMs and NFL personnel units don't have time to keep track of entire future draft classes, primarily because they have to take care of their immediate business -- which college players are likely to be available in the current draft -- and not worry about kids who may or may not be available -- or even be desirable when they're eligible -- in a future draft. Scouts may follow individual players and supply leads to personnel departments on promising freshmen and sophomores but GMs aren't going to plan their current draft boards based on who may or may not be in next year's draft.

I think the biggest problem with Cam right now is his health -- and the inability of teams to actually assess that -- rather than any personality issues.

That sort of makes Trent Edwards a Bills Drought Era "Pro Bowler". ?

Seriously? McGahee didn't suck when he was in Buffalo. Once again, you are confusing the fact that the Bills made a short-sighted personnel move in the 2003 draft with how the player actually performed. McGahee didn't play in 2003 because of injury, but he ran for 1128 yards in 2004, for 1247 in 2005, and 990 in 2006 in only 14 games. He then went on to run for 1207 yards in 2007 for the Ravens and 1199 yards in 2011 for the Broncos. He made the Pro Bowl in 2007 and 2011. I think that the Bills decided that they weren't going to re-sign Travis Henry, possibly because of his off-field issues, but more than likely because the Bills simply didn't re-sign their starting RBs after Polian left. I think that Thurman Thomas, Fred Jackson, and Sean McCoy may have been the only ones to get a second contract/extension from the Bills in the last 25 years or so. McGahee (2003) and Spiller (2010) were allowed to leave in FA. Lynch (2007) was traded for a fourth round pick. They were all first round picks, and McGahee and Lynch were top RBs in their day. IIRC that draft was pretty bad all around. I think that it may be rated as the worst or one of the very worst drafts since the merger -- by pundits who rate those things. I totally agree. Trading away Lynch, along with the trade that sent Jason Peters to the Eagles, have to be among the stupidest moves ever made by the Bills, and were symptomatic of the mismanagement of the team under Russ Brandon. Both Lynch and Peters went on to have All Pro careers with their new teams -- and likely will eventually end up in Canton. McDermott ran the 2017 draft with Whaley as the figurehead GM until he was fired the day after the draft.

Spiller was drafted much too high. He simply wasn't the kind of workhorse RB that should be drafted in the top ten picks. That makes him a "bad pick" but I wouldn't call him a bust.

McCargo had an injury (knee?) that he never recovered from. Why in the world would any team trade up to take a player coming off a serious injury? However, taking players with injury histories seems to have been a common thread during the years when Russ Brandon ran the show: Troupe and Koujandijo also had injury histories which likely compromised their NFL careers even before they were drafted.

Whitner was hated by many Bills fans simply because of where he was drafted. That's on FO stupidity not on the player. He doesn't have any choice of which team drafts him.

Exactly right. McGahee, Whitner, and Spiller weren't busts. They got bad raps among Buffalo fans because the Bills drafted them instead of other players still on the board who had better careers. Watkins wouldn't have been a bad pick if the Bills hadn't given up so much to get him. In the case of Maybin, though, he was both a bad pick and a bust. His physical shortcomings to be a modern NFL edge rusher were apparent well before the draft -- he was a "one trick pony" who depended on a clear line to the QB and speed for sacks -- which Dick Jauron and Russ Brandon ignored because they saw him bulked up at the Combine.

Both Willis McGahee and Donte Whitner were both good players, both for the Bills and for other teams during their NFL careers, including Pro Bowl selections, so they hardly qualify for a list of "the worst players we ever drafted". CJ Spiller also had a decent NFL career, so he doesn't belong on your list, either. Moreover, Trent Edwards was a third round pick who wasn't even the worst third round QB the Bills ever drafted -- see Gary Marangi (1974) -- and even among the third rounders drafted since 1999/2000, there were some outright busts who never even saw the field. You need to have some valid criteria beside your personal dislike of a particular player.

Most teams also don't make the playoffs. If a team doesn't have quality backups throughout most of the roster, then they are aren't really Super Bowl contenders. Consider that both KC and New Orleans lost their starting QBs for several weeks early in the season. Seattle went through all their RBs but still made the playoffs and Philly went through their entire WR corps and still made the playoffs. A team can't play "next man up" if the "next man" isn't good enough.

Exactly this. The Bills are at the point where they can afford to look to the future. WRs taken after the first round tend to need a couple of years to come into their own, so if the Bills can grab a talented youngster who needs a season or two to adjust to the pro game, that would provide them with upgraded depth now (2nd or 3rd round picks tend to be more talented than 6th or 7th round players) and possibly a quality starter in a season or two. That's how winning teams are built -- always looking to upgrade the talent on the team -- rather than creating roster holes with short-sighted personnel decisions, using the draft to fill those holes, and depending upon bottom feeder FAs and UDFA rookies for depth, which was how the Bills operated pretty much since Polian left until the Beane regime.

We use bottled water at the camp because while we have running water for the toilet and bathroom sink, none of us want to drink or cook with it since it comes from an ancient spring cistern that's at least 80 years old. We also have a large trash barrel to collect the damn water bottles ... and we still find some that escape. PITA. I never use bottled water at home but occasionally I'll buy a bottle while traveling or at an event.

When have I used the "B word" about Josh Allen??? What I've complained about -- repeatedly -- was how poorly the Bills managed their QB situation in 2018 -- including not bothering to have an experienced QB coach which could no way be blamed on the team being in their self-imposed "cap hell" -- resulting in Allen literally being "thrown to the wolves" as a rookie -- poorly prepared and lacking both protection and weapons. That all changed dramatically in 2019 and continued into the 2020 FA period so far which suggests that the firing of Russ Brandon as head honcho of the Bills and Sabres in May 2018 brought a shift in the Bills' corporate philosophy that enabled Beane to demonstrate his competency as an NFL GM in acquiring talent to put around Allen, which he's done. Now it's up to Allen to step up and perform better on the field than he did in 2019.

Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on the the QB. I seriously doubt that there was any mushroom cloud over the Titans' decision to replace Mariota with Tannehill or with the Bucs' decision to send Jameis packing even before TB12 became a real options. Nobody in KC is likely to quibble over what the Chiefs eventually pay Mahomes. There might very well be a mushroom cloud over Houston if the Texans somehow fail to secure Watson long term.

I think you need to reread my post for comprehension. My criticism was aimed specifically at the OP who was complaining about other posters not embracing Allen as a bonafide "franchise QB" after his second season. Brady, Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson cemented themselves as their teams' "franchise QBs" in their sophomore seasons. Allen's claim to the "franchise QB" tag is much more tenuous because he simply didn't play as well. That doesn't mean -- and I never claimed -- that he can't continue to improve and become a franchise QB, but in reality he's not one now, and arguing he's a "franchise QB" simply because he's better than the trash that the Bills have started at QB for the past twenty years is disingenuously setting the bar at 2 inches off the ground and cheering that he clears it. The OP needs to aim higher --- and maybe you do, too.

You don't "get the hate that Josh Allen gets around here" because you want everybody else to be a cheerleader for Allen like you are. Excusing Allen's performance deficiencies by comparing him to many of the duds that the Bills have put on the field over the last twenty years is simply cheerleading. Realistic criticism of how a player performs his job is not "hate". The last time I looked, Josh Allen would never be confused with Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson, Russell Wilson or Tom Brady after their second NFL seasons, so wanting Allen to improve his QB skills or discussing the Bills acquiring a better QB is hardly "hate". His peers are the other "franchise QBs" currently in the NFL, and compared to them, his play comes up short. He's had some valid excuses in his first two seasons, but he needs to demonstrate significant improvement if he wants to be considered one. If Allen wasn't the Bills starting QB, I am sure you would not be calling him a "franchise QB" at this point in his career. As for speculation about or comparison to Deshaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes, that's always going to be there for Allen thanks to the Bills trade of the #10 pick in 2017 with both Mahomes and Watson still on the board. The only way that is mitigated is if Allen becomes a great NFL QB in his own right. Mahomes already is a great QB, and Watson is only a notch below him. At this point in their careers, $30 million for Watson would be a steal but Allen isn't worth half that. He needs to prove he is.

Homeward Bound and Homewoard Bound II

RIP Joe Diffie ... Third Rock from the Sun always makes me smile when I hear it.

Totally agree. A team can't have too many weapons because guys get hurt. The Chiefs are the perfect example.