SoTier

^^^ I don't think that either of you remember how Josh Allen played as a sophomore. He showed flashes of possibly being a really good QB but he was inconsistent in his accuracy and his decision-making and played "hero ball" too often. It was only in his third season that Allen blossomed into a top QB. Hurts has shown enough potential that he could very well develop into a franchise QB. Just because he might be as talented as Josh Allen doesn't mean that he's trash, but the Eagles will never know how good he can be if they don't support him with top quality targets. Eli Manning was a decent NFL QB but not nearly as good as his brother Peyton, but he has as many Super Bowl rings as Peyton.

Well, now they have a bonafide #1 and maybe a #1A. My point is that they wanted to give their young QB every opportunity to prove himself and not be hampered by a poor supporting cast. That's exactly what a well run team does.

The Eagles did for Jalen Hurts what the Bills did for Josh Allen: got him a real WR1. How is that "horrible"?

Only about 60% of the players taken in the first round are good enough to stay with their original team for four years. I haven't seen any stats for fourth rounders lasting for four years but I'd bet it's 10% or less for fourth rounders. It's probably significantly less for fourth rounders going to perennial playoff contenders. The chances of a fourth rounder having significant impact with the Bills would be pretty slim.

If Jones explodes this season, he would have wanted a new contract for next year anyways, so this is a smart move on their part IMO. I think this is probably a reaction to the failure of so many first round QBs to actually turn into franchise QBs. These are the first round QBs taken since 2015: 2015: Jameis Winston (1), Marcus Mariota (2) 2016: Jared Goff (1), Carson Wentz (2), Paxton Lynch (26) 2017: Mitch Trubisky (3), Patrick Mahomes (10), Deshaun Watson (12) 2018: Baker Mayfield (1), Sam Darnold (3), Josh Allen (7), Josh Rosen (10), Lamar Jackson (32) 2019: Kyler Murray (1), Daniel Jones (6), Dwayne Haskins (15) The bolded QBs are the bonafide franchise QBs who are/were worth their fifth year salaries, although all but Lamar have gotten extensions/new contracts, and Lamar's lack of an extension/new contract is more that he hasn't pushed negotiations rather than the Ravens not wanting to keep him. That's only 4 franchise QBs out of 16 QBs taken in the first round. The underlined QBs (Baker and Kyler) have shown some promise but they haven't proven that they are actually worth even the big bucks of their fifth year option much less new contracts IMO. Their play seems to be similar to the how Goff and Wentz played in their first three years: some flashes but not consistently top quality play. The Rams and Eagles both exercised the fifth year options on Goff and Wentz, gave them new contracts, and regretted doing so. Cleveland exercised Baker's fifth year option but his play last season didn't merit a new contract. The Browns went out and got a better QB. Kyler hasn't shown that he can perform at a high level for an entire season, but he's threatening a hold out if he doesn't get a new contract before the start of his fourth season. We'll see how that all shakes out.

Individuals matter. Nobody is arguing for the Bills to draft "a RB" in the first the way people argue for a "CB" or "WR". They are specifically arguing for Breece Hall because they believe he's a special player with the potential to be special. I would love it if the Bills drafted Zion Johnson at #25 but that's because he's potentially a great player on the IOL not just because the Bills have a need to improve their IOL. A potential Pro Bowler/All Pro type player at a less-valued position is worth a first round pick for a team drafting late in the first round when the prospects available at more highly valued positions aren't as outstanding individuals.

I would prefer Zion Johnson myself at 25 but I'm not going to complain if they take Hall. It may be a moot point anyway since most of the recent mock drafts have both Zion and the other outstanding center, Tyler Linderbaum, off the board before 25.

I believe that Buddy Nix thought the same thing about Russell Wilson before the third round of the 2012 draft. I don't think anybody is advocating this. I think that posters pushing for Hall believe that a better run game gives the Bills a more diverse offense which makes it harder for defenses to stop and that Hall makes the run game better. I happen to share the belief that the Bills need a better run game, so I'm good with the Bills taking Hall at #25 but I would prefer them to take one of the top centers -- Zion Johnson or Tyler Linderbaum -- because that would also improve the run game by improving the OL IMO. A better run game, whether it's achieved by adding a faster RB or by adding a stud on the interior OL, is the best way to protect Allen. He should not be expected to have more than 1 or 2 designed run plays a game. If the Bills RBs can run for 3 yards or so pretty much whenever they want to, especially in the Red Zone, that takes the pressure off Allen to run. They couldn't do that last season without Allen running, and that needs to change. It's playing Russian roulette.

I had to cut down my old ash tree about 4 years ago because it was suffering from ash dieback. It was also rotting inside and infested with ants ... and attracted multiple nuthatches and woodpeckers. All of the nuthatches have abandoned my yard, not even coming to my bird feeders. A few downey woodpeckers show up at the sunflower feeder, especially during the breeding/nesting season. The nuthatches were very feisty birds for their size. They not only picked on smaller birds, but they'd chase bigger birds away from their space on the feeders.

That's like minimum wage in NYC.

The Bills didn't go "all in on Fitz" because the Bills under Russ Brandon were all about maximizing profits not winning football games. If Fitz had managed to morph into Aaron Rodgers, they would have kept him at mid-range starting QB money. They also didn't spend on backup QBs; I think almost all of their backups while Brandon was the head of the organization might have been practice squad players at best on most other teams. That included Nathan Peterman during Josh Allen's rookie season. Russ Brandon became Bills GM in 2006 and was finally fired in 2018. Keeping Brandon after he bought the team and then promoting him after the Rex Ryan disaster to head both the Bills and Sabres was the biggest mistake Pegula made. Luckily, Pegula made the right pick for Bills GM with Beane. The Sabres paid for Brandon's "money ball" philosophy for a lot longer, although they seem to be finally making strides in the right direction.

That wasn't Nix. He might have been on the Bills staff at that time, but it was Brandon and Jauron running the draft in 2009. Jauron loved smurfs on defense because they were supposed to be faster (I still remember watching Bills LBs regularly being dragging downfield by RBs). IIRC, Maybin had straight line speed even at 240 lbs (which was like 30+ lbs more than his playing weight at PSU) but he didn't have much agility so he couldn't develop the kinds of moves that lighter edge rushers use to get to QBs.

What makes you think that Aaron Rodgers would have been anything but a mediocre QB on the Bills in the 2005-2009 period? Mularkey couldn't get much out of Pro Bowler Drew Bledsoe in 2004-2005 and Jauron seemed to have a pathological dislike for talented players who didn't toe his play-not-to-lose-by-too-much line. Captain Checkdown Trent Edwards was Juaron's style QB. He banished Beast Mode Marshawn Lynch to his "doghouse" in 2009 when Lynch was the only offense the Bills had. Rodgers would have clashed with Jauron instantly simply because he wanted to win football games not play not to lose them by too much.

I voted for Maybin, too. I never thought of the Penn State angle, but it's definitely a possibility. I just thought that Brandon let Dick Jauron be his talent evaluator and Jauron loved undersized defenders, so a tweener DE who was too small to knock OLers out of his way and too slow to loop around them was just up Jauron''s alley. Certainly, Manuel was drafted in 2013 solely to put butts in the seats, so he is my second choice. He was a classic "reach": a third or fourth round talent taken in the first round because the team "needed" a player at that position. Every time I hear one of these draftniks on TV advocating for Detroit or Carolina to take a QB because they might not be drafting this high again, I cringe. Drafting a QB with the #2 or #6 pick just because you need a QB even though he's not a top 5 or top 10 quality prospect is sheer stupidity. Drafting a second or third round talent high in the first round isn't going to make him better. Mike Williams is third on my list, mostly because I think Williams was totally mismanaged by the Bills. Williams played RT in college, and he was built like a prototypical pro RT at the time: a massive man who opened holes for inside runners. The Bills tried to turn him into a LT, a position for which he wasn't physically suited, because that's what they needed. I think he played well on the right side as a rookie, but his play tailed off when he was put at left tackle because he simply wasn't quick or agile enough to play there. In fact, he probably would have had a decent career if he'd been drafted later specifically to play guard. At the end of his career with Washington, Williams did switch to guard but his career was cut short by a medical issue IIRC.

At a time when football players behaving badly off the field has become commonplace (or maybe bad behavior can't be hidden as easily as it was in the past), Allen isn't just a superstar on the field, he's one off the field as well.

True but Jack Kemp was drafted by the Steelers in 1957 when they were in the NFL. Kemp played 2 seasons with the AFL LA Chargers that became the SD Chargers before he was traded to the Bills when they played in the AFL. After the 1966 season, the Bills fell apart, and Kemp's career ended in 1969, the year before the AFL totally merger with the NFL. Joe Ferguson was a nice QB but he wasn't a great one. He was the only QB the Bills drafted who became Jim Kelly spent 2 years in the original USFL. Daryle Lamonica was drafted by the Bills and later became a superstar but only after he left the Bills.

I was po'd at the Bills for about six or seven years because they didn't draft Russell Wilson in 2012. The Seahawks became one of my favorite teams because of Russ -- except when they play the Bills. Now I'll become more of a lukewarm Broncos fan. I was po'd after the fact at the Bills for a couple of years because they traded out the #10 pick in 2017 and so passed on Patrick Mahomes. KC is one of my favorite teams -- as long as they aren't playing the Bills or if their winning a game would impact the Bills. I've always liked Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, and Kirk Cousins, so I have little doubt that I would still like Josh Allen even if he had no connection to the Bills. After all, it wouldn't have been his fault that the Browns drafted him first overall. If he'd been drafted by the Jests, I don't think I could "like" him but I would probably pity him because he wouldn't be the QB he is with the Bills ... Isn't it utterly and completely awesome that we Bills fans no longer have to console ourselves by saying that some other team's great QB wouldn't be the great QB he is if he'd had been drafted by the Bills? The Bills actually drafted a QB and developed him into a superstar. First time this franchise has ever done that.

Call me naive or old fashioned, but why would a woman who isn't a licensed masseuse -- ie, she's not a professional masseuse -- expect that some big time celeb who invited her to a hotel room for a "massage" actually wanted only a massage? It seems to me that the "negligence" here is on the part of the women who failed to exercise common sense.

For the first 25 of the last 30 years the Bills stunk because Ralph Wilson and his hand-picked successor, Russ Brandon, put maximizing profits ahead of winning football games. The Bills did not start prioritizing winning over maximizing profits until 2018 because Pegula kept Brandon in power after he purchased the team. It was only after Russ Brandon got the boot and Beane was given real GM power (including setting budgets for coaches, scouting, etc) did the Bills start putting winning ahead of profits. Once the salary cap was instituted in 1994, the Bills didn't give many of their first round draft picks second contracts not just RBs but also DBs whom they traded out with regularity. 1994 - Jeff Burris DB 1994-1998 1995 - Ruben Brown G 1995-2003 9 times Pro Bowler, 8 times with the Bills, 1 time with Bears 1996 - Eric Moulds WR 1996-2005 3 times Pro Bowler for Bills 1997 - Antowain Smith RB 1997-2000 won 2 SB rings with New England in 2001 and 2003 1998 - no first round pick 1999 - Antoine Winfield CB 1999-2003 3 times Pro Bowler for the Vikings 2000- Erik Flowers DE 2000-2001 2001 - Nate Clements DB 2001-2006 Pro Bowler for the Bills 2002 - Mike Williams OT 2002-2005 2003 - Willis McGahee RB 2003-2006 Pro Bowler with both Ravens and Broncos 2004 - Lee Evans WR 2004 -2010 2004 - JP Losman QB 2004-2008 2005 - no first round pick 2006 - Donte Whitner S 2006-2010 Pro Bowler for 49ers and Browns 2006 - John McCargo DT 2006-2010 2007 - Marshawn Lynch RB 2007-2010 Pro Bowler for Bills, 4 times Pro Bowler and 1 time All Pro for Seahawks won SB with Seahawks in 2014 2008 - Leotis McKelvin DB 2008-2015 2009 - Aaron Maybin DE 2009-2010 2009 - Eric Wood 0C 2009-2017 2010 - CJ Spiller RB 2010-2014 Pro Bowler for Bills 2011 - Marcell Dareus DT 2011-2017 2 time Pro Bowler, 1 time All Pro for Bills 2012 - Stephon Gilmore CB 2012-2016 1 time Pro Bowler for Bills, 3 times Pro Bowler and 2 time All Pro for Patriots, 1 time Pro Bowler for Panthers 2013 - EJ Manuel QB 2013-2016 2014 - Sammy Watkins WR 2014-2016 2015 - no first round pick 2016 - Shaq Lawson DE 2016-2019 2017 - Tre'Davious White 2017-present 2 times Pro Bowler for Bills Brown, Moulds, and Dareus were the only outstanding first round players at their positions that the Bills signed to second contracts until Beane re-signed Tre White. Brown, Winfield, McGahee, Whitner, Lynch, and Gilmore were all named to Pro Bowls after the Bills either released them, declined to re-sign them or traded them. Lynch and Gilmore were also named All Pros after leaving the Bills. Both also won Super Bowl rings as did Antowain Smith. Ruben Brown also played in a Super Bowl with Bears while the Bills didn't even play in the post season from 2000 until 2017. The Bills failed to draft particularly well in the first round for most of the last 30 years, and they compounded their problems by sending most of the best players they developed packing rather than paying them. For most of the 2000s, the Bills were irrelevant to the NFL except as a farm club for other teams. It wasn't drafting McGahee, Spiller and Lynch that caused that any more than it was drafting Winfield, Clements, Whitner and Gilmore. They were all good players. The Bills were a dysfunctional franchise for most of the last 30 years.

Then the Bills should take Zion Johnson or Ryan Linderbaum if one of them is on the board at #25.

This is exactly why I support improving the running game. I don't care exactly how the Bills do it -- drafting a top IOL prospect (Johnson or Linderbaum) or the top RB prospect (Hall) in this draft -- but they need to protect Allen by giving him a more diverse offense so that his designed runs are much fewer and so that the Bills can run the ball down other teams' throats if weather conditions (like the NE game) or defensive scheme makes passing difficult. I don't want the Bills to turn into a 50/50 pass/run team and I certainly don't want them to morph into a run first team, but I want them to be able to have a good enough run game for the RBs to regularly run for 4-6 yards a crack with the threat of one of them breaking a long gainer on the ground ever present. Love the sarcasm!!!!

I understand that but using White as an example was a poor choice, especially when the Bills pre-Beane gave us sooooooo many examples.

Soooo ... you don't think Hall is worth an early pick but you assume that some professional NFL talent evaluator will take him before the Bills get to draft him in Round 3?

Why is Hall a "reach"? He's considered the best RB in this draft class and a first round talent. I don't want the Bills to reach for a player at any position. Don't try to rewrite history. White might have been a reach at #10 but wasn't considered one at #24 or #25 where the Bills took him. The controversy with White was that the Bills traded out of the #10 pick when they needed a QB and 2 excellent prospects, Mahomes and Watson, were available. Taking White also seemed to be part of the same old, same old Bills management pattern under Ralph Wilson/Russ Brandon regime during the salary cap era: allowing good/great players to walk rather than give them a second contract and using the draft to fill the hole left in the roster. The Bills passed on a QB to draft a DB because they had allowed Stephon Gilmore to leave in FA earlier. I'm a ZJ fan myself and would definitely want the Bills to take him over Hall if both were available. However, most of the posters arguing against Hall also don't want a first round IOLer. They simply don't want RBs because of their short "shelf lives" and they don't want IOLers because they're "too expensive" if teams exercise fifth year options. Neither is a particularly compelling reason, especially when few, if any, of the posters in this thread arguing against the Bills taking Hall at #25 have actually named a WR or CB that they'd like the Bills to take. It seems to me that if you don't want the Bills to take Hall, then you ought to offer the name of a specific alternative, ie, an actual prospect not a generic WR or CB.

I agree with this view of Beane. I was very skeptical about him early on but he's proven that he's not only all about building a winning team but really good at it, so I'm good with whomever he takes in the first round although my personal preference would be IOLers Zion Johnson or Tyler Linderbaum if they're available. As for the fifth year option argument, I think it's overblown. With first round draft picks expected to start contributing as rookies, teams generally know what they have in a player well before they have to make a decision on a fifth year option.