SoTier

I WAS talking about OL. The going rate for a good veteran LT, even if he's older like Andrew Whitworth, is $10-11 million annually. RTs are somewhat less and OGs and C are less but don't count on getting any quality OLers for under $5 million a year each in FA. Yeah, a team can spend less but you get what you pay which is why Vlad Ducasse, perennial failed OG, is the Bills starter.

They could have signed one of them. They chose not to. They also chose to let Gilmore and Gillislee walk. Then they started holding a fire sale via trades. They started peddling Dareus so early and often that I'm shocked that they even got a sixth rounder for him; most observers were sure that teams would just wait until they cut him in the off season. Marrone must have really, really wanted ol' #99 ... and he'll probably blossom in Jax. Meanwhile, the Bills have loaded up their roster with JAGs, STers, PS refugees, and some rookies. Cleveland isn't the only team playing moneyball. Well, according to at least one poster, since we should be grateful that we don't live in Syria, we should be happy to continue to support perennial losers.

What the Bills did was shed talent and 2017 payroll, and they used the claim that they didn't "fit" McDermott's "skill set" as their excuse. I actually heard some analyst on tv -- it might have been before/during the Thursday night fiasco against the Jests -- actually say that Woods, Watkins, and Goodwin were all gone because they didn't have the "skill set" the Bills "needed". What "skill set" was that exactly? Apparently Beane and McDermott don't see talent as being a need because the Bills are quickly descending into the talentless depths most recently occupied by Indy and Cleveland ... and the Jauron era Bills. What veterans are left on the team that have any proven talent? Shady, Glenn, Benjamin, and Clay. Since there were so many rumors earlier first about Shady and then later about Glenn being traded, I would not at all be surprised to see them both gone before the beginning of next season, probably swapped for draft picks so that the Bills can draft their shiny new Savior QB and keep the fans excited at least until he looks awful because he has crappy coaching, no protection, and few targets.

Oh, don't be such a Debbie Downer and quash all the happy dreams of the fans spinning fantasies of the Phantom Savior QB who's going to take the Bills to the Super Bowl all by himself. Right-o. Good veteran OLers are always fighting to come play for the Bills with their 2 winning seasons in the last 17 years, especially for the peanuts that OBD deems OLers are worth. That's why Vlad Ducasse is the Bills starting RG.

It doesn't make a difference. The Bills have been drafting in the top 10-12 most of this century, and it hasn't made them winners. Sometimes they've missed on their high picks, but mostly they don't keep them beyond their rookie contracts even if they're Pro Bowlers ... or maybe I should say, especially if they become Pro Bowlers.

Point. Set. Match. Beane and McDermott stripped the defense of virtually all its younger talent except Lawson, and replaced it with rookies, ST refugees, and assorted JAGs.

Committing a first round pick to a QB when the team already has a franchise QB (or what they believe is a franchise QB) already playing isn't something that many teams do. In recent years, the only teams I can think of that's done that was Green Bay when they grabbed Rodgers while they still had Favre and KC when they grabbed Mahomes when they had Smith. Would either have taken a QB if they had missed the playoffs the year before and were drafting in the top ten with lots of desperate needs to fill? Probably not, and that's the case with both San Diego and NO. They had much bigger issues than their QBs. The Jags were committed to Bortles; teams that draft a QB in the first round are going to give him his full contract to prove or disprove himself unless he's absolutely a disaster like Ja'Marcus Russell. The improvement in Jared Goff demonstrates that young QBs can turn it around abruptly, especially when the coaching and talent around them improves. Finally, Andy Dalton wasn't considered a problem before the 2017 season. Being in his 6th or 7th season, he was expected to be in his prime. Sorry, dude, but my mama didn't raise me to be so grateful that I'm allowed to live at all that I don't complain about living in a vile hell hole. Acceptance may be your thing, but it's sure not my family tradition. My people didn't wait around praying for the czar or Bolsheviks or Nazis to spare them ... they did something about it even if that something was just to get the hell out of Dodge while they could. When I don't like something, I do something about it, even if that something is very minor and/or only symbolic. The Bills are actually very low on any scale of importance but I sure am NOT so grate that they exist that I'll be happy about the manure that's been dumped on Bills fans for the last seventeen, and soon likely to be eighteen, years. It's why I no longer am a season ticket holder and why I choose not to attend even one game this season.

Actually, not that many: he went #12, and the Jags, Titans, Chargers, Panthers, Bengals, and Saints all had QBs, so only 6 players were taken ahead of him by teams that might have been looking for QBs, including QBs Trubisky and Mahomes. If the Bills had chosen to make him their #10 pick instead of trading with KC, only 4 players would have been taken ahead of him by QB needy teams, and only 1 QB. It's entirely possible that Watson turns out to be just another flashy first year starter who will look great until the DCs figure out his game, but my point is that assuming the Bills will get it right on a QB just because they want or need one is the ultimate foolishness.

He likely won't be on the roster next year either. How did drafting EJ Manuel in 2013 work out? Oh, yeah, having EJ allowed them to pass on Derek Carr. What about trading back to draft JP Losman in 2004? Even if they had wanted Aaron Rodgers, who lasted until #24, they'd already wasted their 2005 first rounder on Losman. This is also the same franchise that passed on DeShaun Watson to trade back to #27 to pick a DB to fill the hole created by not re-signing their former first round DB Stephon Gilmore.

Well said, sir. The Bills have been heading for a melt-down since the beginning of the season. A combination of luck, opponents that are not as good as they appeared to be, and the lack of film for opponents to analyze enabled them to mask their worse issues but the manure has finally hit the proverbial fan. IMO, Dareus was the key to a house of cards ... even if he wasn't playing as much as he should/could for whatever reason, he was enough of a force to at least hold back the worst of the defensive disaster. Without him, all the deficiencies on the DL against the run were exposed because there was no longer anybody to force teams to use double teams on obvious running downs. As for the offense, I think it comes back to two things: continued issues with the OL, lack of talent at WR capable of stretching the field, and very conservative play calling by the OC. Taylor isn't a QB from the wild and woolly 70s or 80s who calls his own plays. I'm not even sure how much he's allowed to audible. Good defensive teams -- or hungry divisional rivals like the Jests -- know that the Bills need to get their run game going and that they don't have any downfield WRs -- so they put 8 in the box to stop the run and limit yards on check downs -- and they're successful, the Bills are toast During the 5-2 run, the Bills as a team bought into the McDermott philosophy -- and, according to the company line, those who didn't were kicked to the curb. The problem is that mind/will/desire does not have an infinite capability to top matter, ie talent. Will cannot make a slow player faster. It can't make a player with average football instincts and skills play like the best player at that position in the league. It can't make a smaller player able to stop a bigger player when all else is equal. The laws of physics apply on the football field just like in the rest of the universe. A team without much talent on both sides of the ball -- which is the Bills thanks to various FO moves in 2017 -- isn't going to have much success against a team with significantly more talent no matter how much they want it. In a few freakish instances they might get lucky and win a game, but not many. That's where the Bills are. It's likely that teams like KC and NE will lay more ugly losses on them. I have no idea if the team will quit on McDermott. I don't think it has happened yet, but how many more losses like Sunday can the team absorb before they do? Dan, in answer to your last point, I said back in TC that this regime bore a strong resemblance to the Jauron regime, and while I think McDermott is a significantly better coach than Jauron, the resemblance to the Jauron debacle in 2008 seems even stronger now.

Future HOFers: LT Jason Peters, one of the all time great OLers to play the game, and RB Marshawn Lynch, but I suppose they were before you discovered football, right?

Bull manure. The Bills aren't where they need to be against poor teams like the Jests, either, and it's NOT going to be fixed any time soon ... any more that it has never been fixed over the last 17 years. A team that continuously sheds its best talent for reasons other than absolute necessity -- ie, they're up against the cap -- is never going to win anything as the Bills' 2 winning seasons in this century attest, but keep making excuses for them if it makes you feel better. The proof is in how many players that the Bills didn't want go to other teams and have productive or good or great or even HOF careers while the Bills wallow in the same losing rut they've claimed as their own since 2000.

Revisionist history to make justify the Bills' bad moves just like the Bills apologists now claiming that Dareus was disrupting the locker room when there was nothing ever even hint that he was any kind of trouble in the locker room.

Keep telling yourself as the playoff drought continues into the foreseeable future.

0-9 Apparently some fans expect that mythical Bills Super Bowl team to materialize from thin air.

Oh, we've been this route before ... 2008 started 5-2 and went 2-7 down the stretch ... 2011 started 5-2 and went 1-8 down the stretch. This isn't dire for anybody except for some of the players. McDermott and his crew isn't getting fired after one season; both Jauron and Gailey got another year despite their teams' collapses. Neither is Beane even if the team goes 0-9 down the stretch because "the Process" needs to be "trusted" for several more years before it becomes obvious that the new crew is as crappy as the old crew.

Well, you might think you don't "buy whatever the organization sells" but your post says differently.

It's been "The Bills Way" -- giving away the best talent on the team for next to nothing that supposedly will someday produce a playoff run that never comes -- for the last decade but we're all supposed to believe that we haven't been down this road before. Of course, 2017 is shaping up to be a mirror image of 2008 and 2011 when the Bills started out 5-2 and then collapsed defensively. You're not going to EVER convince the Bills true believers that the Dareus trade was a mistake simply because they buy every specious excuse that OBD feeds them ... and then they make some more of their own. You'll STILL find those who defend trading away Jason Peters and Marshawn Lynch. Too many Bills fans can't get their minds around the idea that in modern NFL defenses, players can specialize. McDermott used Dareus as a run stopping specialist, and he was good at it, but he took Dareus out on passing plays. I'm not going to pretend to know why McDermott didn't use Dareus on passing downs because it's not like the Bills had anybody else who could collapse the pocket, but Jim Schwartz used him successfully on passing down back in the "good ol' days" of 2014 when the Bills actually got to passers. Spot on post. If the Bills draft a DT in 2018, it will be 2-3 seasons before he starts playing up to his best level, and yes, they need to find a replacement for Kyle Williams plus they definitely need a RG better than Vlad Ducasse and Richie Incognito is as old as KW, so he's not going to be around much longer, either. Basically, the Bills need to rebuild both lines. I will be shocked, however, if the Bills actually draft any DLer or OLer on Day 1 or 2 in 2018. They'll go with a QB in the first round because they'll need to excite the fan base with a shiny new first round QB savior even if they have to reach for one ... just like they did in 2013. Seventeen years of no play offs, including the last 12 years under the direction of Russ Brandon, suggests it's "clearly" NOT Bills fans who don't "understand the broader football operation and how teams are constructed...." All Bills fans, myself included, are guilty of is being repeatedly duped by the people running the Buffalo Bills.

Actually, might get more bang for the buck with using them on the defensive line.

That works two ways. When people feel wanted or needed, they tend to give much better effort than if they feel unwanted and/or expendable. Since stories began surfacing back in the spring about the Bills wanting to get rid of Dareus, it had to be obvious to him that he wasn't wanted. I'm sure somewhere in McDermott's " study guide on "How to Be an NFL Head Coach" there's at least a paragraph or two about motivating players. He might Google "self-fulfilling prophecy", too.

Did you watch any of the games against the Jests and/or Saints? I seriously doubt it or you wouldn't have started this thread. The Bills will be lucky to win another game this season.

Sorry, but I subscribe to the Harry S. Truman school of accountability: the buck stops here (ie, the top). Brandon has been the top guy for more than a decade, and he's responsible for the organizational culture on the Bills that puts the emphasis on profitability rather than on wins. His doesn't have to be "hands on" because he's delegated that to his subordinates, individuals who are conveniently nameless and buried in organizational charts with esoteric titles. Beane and McDermott didn't hire themselves did they? Beane wasn't even here when the decisions to not sign Gilmore, Gillislee, and Woods, and I don't think he was here when the actual decisions to trade Dareus and Watkins were made. What kind of professional organization would leave such major personnel decisions as trading high profile players to a neophyte coach/manager who's never had this high a responsibility when he doesn't even know them? Somebody in the Bills FO made those decisions, and it wasn't Whaley, and if it had been, they could have easily been rescinded when he was gone. Whaley danced to whatever tune his bosses at OBD played, and Beane does the same. Until and unless Brandon and his disciples go, the Bills are going to keep doing the same BS over and over again that they've done since 2006, and the drought will continue indefinitely. They are never going to have an independent and experienced "football guy" as GM who has the power to hire his own coaches and decide which players to draft, which ones to pay to keep, and which ones to let walk based on what's likely best for winning football games, not for fattening profit margins or putting butts in the seats. The problem is that the Bills never keep enough of their best talent long enough for them to become cornerstones because they aren't willing to pay the going rate for top talent. He's the President of the Buffalo Bills, bud. Y'know, the guy in charge. The guy who makes the ultimate decisions about who to hire and who to fire, and who to pay and who to send packing. That's what Russ Brandon has to do with the current roster. Agreed. Bortles is a step or two above Osweiler as a starter, even if he was taken in the top three in his draft year, and he really holds that team back.

No, they needed a CB because they let Gilmore walk, and intended to use their first pick on a DB. CBs are just about the Bills' favorite first round position to pick, along with WRs and RBs. QBs, not so much.

Define on "hit on". NFL caliber or better than the trash that the Bills currently have at some positions? Whaley was hitting on NFL caliber players, but most of his picks weren't "difference makers". Of course, if Watkins or Woods or Dareus blossom into difference makers on other teams, then it will be just a bigger indictment of the Bills organization, won't it?

He's President of the Bills. He's been in charge of the Bills under various titles since 2006. The Bills have a 73-103 record and 0 play off appearances since 2006. The Bills have a .415 winning percentage since 2006. The Bills have had 1 winning season (9-7), 1 8-8 season, and 9 losing seasons since 2006. The Bills finished last in the AFCE from 2008 through 2013. The Bills have one of the lowest retention rates of high round draft picks of any NFL team over the last decade. In 2017 alone, they shipped out 3 first rounders (Dareus, Gilmore, Watkins), 2 second rounders (Woods, Ragland), and at least 1 third rounder (Goodwin). The Bills have traded away a Pro Bowl LT (Peters) and a Pro Bowl RB (Lynch) since 2006 who went on to have All Pro and HOF careers with other teams. The Bills have had 2 GMs and 5 HCs not counting interim HCs. They've changed owners. They are no closer to making the playoffs in 2017 than they were in 2006. Actually, since they have less talent as of today than they had in 2006, they probably aren't even as close. So, when does "accountability" for the miserable record the Bills have compiled over the last 11 years get applied to the individuals who make key decisions on hiring GMs, HCs, budgets for coaching staffs, players, etc? Apparently, ol' Harry Truman's "The buck stops here" doesn't apply to Russ Brandon. And, no, Teef, I'm NOT getting "a new schtick" because you cannot change an organizational culture while leaving the individual responsible for that organizational culture in place.