SoTier

How rational is it to attempt to field an offense without a single WR without enough speed to stretch the field, which was the Bills WR corps in both 2017 and most of 2018 until Robert Foster got a chance to play? How rational is it to replace a better than average center, a Pro Bowl left guard, and a better than average left tackle with bottom feeder centers and guards and an inexperienced left tackle and expect to get decent offensive performance from them? How rational is it to draft a blue chip QB prospect and expect him to perform without decent protection and decent WRs? How rational is it to keep Nathan Peterman on the roster as even a backup QB when it had to be clear that he simply couldn't do the job? How rational is it to have waited around for a month waiting for Derek Anderson to finish his golf tourney while keeping Peterman as Allen's backup? At best McDermott and Beane spent two seasons doing OTJ training. Maybe they've learned enough to have success but I'll believe that when they actually have success.

Of course there's really been a change. The Bills already have most of their "camp fodder" among the holdovers from last year's roster, most notably on offense.

Just because Arizona wants to get rid of Rosen -- and I'm not convinced that that's actually true -- that doesn't mean that any NFL team will give anything for him or be willing to take on his salary when experienced back ups who can impersonate competent NFL QBs for at least a few games (Barkley, Fitzpatrick, Griffin, Tannehill, Taylor) can be had for less. Rosen is NOT a Jimmy Garoppolo who had 3 or 4 years of experience as a backup with a handful of starts in which he looked pretty good sitting behind an established future HOFer. He's a former first round pick who had an unimpressive rookie season on a terrible team.

My view is that the Bills are signing so many FAs this off season because the current team is virtually devoid of offensive talent and needs immediate upgrading if Allen is going to have any chance to develop into a good NFL QB. If Allen busts, McDermott and Beane are history, so they have to do everything they can to put significantly better pieces around him ASAP so they can't afford to wait 2 or 3 years for rookies to develop. Most of the Bills extra draft picks are Day 3 picks IIRC which are far more likely to not make the team anyway. More importantly, I expect that several of the Bills current players, including possibly some who are currently penciled in as starters, won't make the 2019 final roster. It's also possible that not all of the FA signees stick. I think that another poster in a thread last week described the Bills' FA signings as Beane throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks, which may be a good analogy. Since this regime has shown a propensity to trade up for certain players, I would not be surprised if they did so again but I think that's not because they signed a bunch of FAs to fill their needs but because they decide they have to have Player X whatever the cost.

Exactly this. If the Cards really think Rosen will make a good NFL QB, they wouldn't even be considering drafting another QB this season -- and every other NFL team will look at it the same way.

I think Rosen stays in Arizona. I don't think that there's much of a market for a former first round QB whose original team wants to get rid of him after his rookie season. Teams give first round draft picks lots more leeway than they do other picks. A team wanting to bail on their last season's first round pick labels him "BUST!", and I can't see any other team being interested in him much less giving up anything for him.

So, you expect Josh Allen to become a great QB with a coaching staff and supporting staff that you don't think capable of doing the same with Patrick Mahomes who has already demonstrated extraordinary talent, ability, and leadership? I'm not dissing Allen, but the difference between Mahomes and Allen is similar to the difference between Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson ... both are great QBs but Luck's physical talent is simply better than Wilson's although so far Wilson has been more successful. Allen may become a great QB, too, but Mahomes' talent is extraordinary like Luck's. Even mediocre coaching and support can't hide that fact.

Who's fault is that? Whaley/Marrone did all they could to put their QB in a position to succeed. That he didn't is on him. McDermott/Beane stipped this team of it's WR talent, traded away the only decent OLer they had left after Wood and Incognito retired, and replaced all with scrubs. Then they deliberately threw their pricey young QB to the wolves with no support by wasting a roster spot on Nathan Peterman and even naming Peterman starter for the season opener. He didn't even have an experienced QB coach last season! If Allen fails, at least part of the blame has to be on McDermott/Beane.

Well, being named a "starter" on a team that doesn't have a competent starter at that position isn't quite the same as being named the starter over a competent veteran who could be starter on most teams in the league. Stephon Gilmore was gone before Tre White was drafted. Cordy Glenn was injured in 2017 and then traded away in 2018, and when Dion Dawkins didn't have Richie Incognito helping him out in 2018, he sucked. In 2018 Allen, Edmunds, and Teller had absolutely no viable competition to beat out, and in Allen's case, the Bills brain trust of McDermott and Beane made sure of that by trading away Taylor before the draft and McCarron before the regular while keeping Peterman on the roster. I understood you perfectly. You claimed that the Bills lacked talent before the arrival of McDermott and Beane, and that's simply untrue. They had talent but chose to get rid of it rather than build on the foundation that they had. So, the absence of Gilmore, Woods, Goodwin, Watkins, Brown, Glenn, Taylor, Dareus, etc and all the others are very much in play in any discussion of the McDermott-Beane regime. Talent recognition is the major function of any team's GM or HC/GM combo, and at best, McDermott and Beane have done a mediocre job at best. They shed good talent for nothing or next to nothing. They have overpaid and/or totally missed on poor talent like Jones and Peterman. They gamble on projects and apparently think that hard work and practice can somehow turn poor players into good ones when the talent simply isn't there. If White beat out Gilmore for the starting job, THAT would be an accomplishment. Beating out air ain't nothing to brag about. If Dawkins beat out a healthy Glenn, then he's the real deal. Beating air ain't nothing. Allen beating out Taylor would be a big deal -- that's exactly what Mayfield did in Cleveland -- but beating out Nate Peterman is less than nothing.

This thread is at least 90% BS. The only thing about the last two drafts that has been "incredible" is all the bull manure that McDermott/Beane cheerleaders on TSW make up about them -- and the outright lies they make up to "prove" their points. The only 2017 draft that Brandon Beane had a hand-in was the Carolina Panthers' draft -- if he had all much to do with it at all as his responsibilities as Assistant GM in Carolina did not seem to include college player evaluation. Sean McDermott was in charge of the 2017 draft as he won the power struggle with GM Doug Whaley who was fired immediately after the 2017 draft. The 2015 and 2016 Bills teams were pretty talented teams that McDermott and Beane chose to dismantle for their own reasons, and that's proven by the fact that several of the players that the Bills chose to get rid of in 2017 and 2018, most notably Stephon Gilmore (All Pro CB), Robert Woods, and Cordy Glenn, went on to play well/great with their new teams -- and certainly better than the players that McDermott and Beane kept or added to the team to replace them. Moreover, the 2015 and 2016 Bills were considered poorly coached exactly because they had pretty good talent. The problem with the 2015-2016 teams was that they could not "finish" out games, too frequently giving up leads late in games. They weren't teams that were over-matched often, having only lost by 2 TDs or more 4 times in 2 seasons. Instead of building on that talent base, McDermott and Beane choose to strip the Bills of most of that talent and replace it with 2nd and 3rd rate talent as part of McDermott’s “process”. The result was that while McDermott-Beane's Bills have the same aggregate 2 year record (15-17) as Whaley-Ryan's teams, they lost 4 games by 2 TDs or more in 2017 and added 5 more 14 point or more losses in 2018. The Bills got one quality starter out of the 2017 draft: Tre White. Dawkins and Milano are decent starters but nothing spectacular – and Dawkins’ play without Pro Bowl LG Richie Incognito beside him seriously declined in 2018, and exposed the fact that he would make a better guard than a tackle. The real story of the Bills 2017 draft is the missed opportunities, and that makes it a terrible draft. Passing on Patrick Mahomes was a major faux pas no matter how great a CB White turns out to be career wise. Arguing that Mahomes wouldn’t have put up numbers like he does in KC is simply displaying ignorance. Mahomes is a play-maker fully capable of lifting the play of his teammates and covering team flaws the same way that great QBs like Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, and Tom Brady have done. The Bills traded up in the second round to take Zay Jones when they could have had Juju Smith-Schuster. Smith-Schuster has been a good WR from the get-go while to say that Jones has struggled is an understatement. Yes, he improved in 2018 but his play in 2017 was so bad that he had nowhere to go but up. If he winds up as a starter in 2019, it’s because the veteran FA WRs the Bills brought in failed or got injured. The Bills wasted a fifth round pick and a roster spot on Nathan Peterman in 2017 – and lost games because of it in both 2017 and 2018. That fifth rounder could have been much better used on just about any other position on the team and the Bills would have been better off. It is still at least two years too early to judge the 2018 draft. Some of the rookies who barely played will emerge to become stars in the league, and some of the rookies who looked the most promising will sink. It’s highly unlikely that all five of the QBs taken in Round 1 will still be starters by the end of 2020 because most drafts yield only 1 franchise QB at best. Maybe 20 or 25% of drafts produce 1 franchise QB and 1 or 2 other QBs who are at least quality starters for several years. Rarely do drafts produce more than 1 bonafide franchise QB, and many drafts don’t produce any. Hopefully, Allen develops into a franchise QB at least on the level of QBs like Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan or Matthew Stafford. Because the Bills spent so much to get him, he needs to be better than just an Alex Smith or Joe Flacco. If Allen fails to progress, the McDermott-Beane regime is doomed. Edmunds played decently as a rookie but displayed the faults that scouts noted before the draft, notably the ability to instinctively react to plays. Maybe that’s something that he’ll develop or maybe he should be playing on the outside to take full advantage of his talents as many have suggested. Wyatt Teller might be a “diamond in the rough” but he might also be only slightly less incompetent than the incompetent guard he replaced. The Bills OL in 2018 was one of the worst in the league, so becoming a starter on it for less than half a season doesn’t make anybody on it something to write home about. Would Teller be starting on teams with even mediocre OLs?

Actually, if a QB doesn't make significant improvement in his second year as a starter, he's unlikely to become a successful QB. That first year as a starter is a huge learning curve for young QBs, but the second year is when they should demonstrate that they're likely to develop into a good QB or just another mediocre one. Even with showing promise as a second year starter, though, a youngster needs to continue to develop and hone his skills. That's what separates QBs like Rivers, Rodgers and Wilson from Sanchez and Tannehill.

Like they've done with the Sabres since they acquired the team?

I didn't realize that Lotulelei and Murphy weren't intended to lead the Bills into the future. They're pretty expensive "stop gaps" in that case. The reality is that Beane has to be so active in FA in 2019 because McDermott screwed up the 2017 draft by passing on Mahomes to draft a DB. No DB ever is worth a bonafide franchise QB. Plus he traded up to take Zay Jones when he could have taken Juju Smith-Schuster and gotten a significantly better WR. Then McDermott and Beane traded away both Watkins and Dareus because they didn't fit McDermott's "process". In the wake of the retirements of Wood and Incognito, Beane traded away LT Cordy Glenn as part of his desperate maneuvering to move up in the draft to take Allen ... because the Bills didn't take Mahomes in 2017. The McDermott and Beane failed to recognize the importance of having a competent OL and WR corps, and their incompetence led to a serious to Allen. IOW, having to sign numerous FAs to fill major holes on the offense in 2019 because McDermott and Beane screwed up personnel decisions in 2017 and 2018.

This is exactly how I feel. I haven't said too much about the new FA signings because while they look good on paper, we won't know if they're duds or studs until probably October or November. They should be an upgrade simply because last year's offense was so lacking in talent but we won't know until the games are played. I criticize the moves that I think the Bills made that are wrong-headed or short-sighted BECAUSE I am a fan who cares about the team. When I was a still true believer I used to get angry at what he wrote but as the Bills' losing years turned into losing decades, I found that his criticisms were justified far more than my perpetual optimism about Bills moves.

That some individuals or organizations in the media take on cheerleader roles for specific teams doesn't mean that that's what they're supposed to do.

I was addressing the idea that's frequently been raised on TSW that a team was specifically "tanking" in order to get the #1 draft pick in the next draft in order to pick a specific college player, ie, Andrew Luck in 2012. Teams often do dismantle good or mediocre teams for various reasons, most often because of pure incompetence, but one of them isn't to be able to pick a specific collegiate player

You obviously forgot about the spring of 2003 when the Bills signed Takeo Spikes and London Fletcher-Baker and some other solid defensive players and looked to be "the real deal" -- or the spring of 2012 when the Bills brought in Mario Williams. I'll believe that the Bills are capable of "sustained success" when they actually sustain some success. I've been fooled too many times in the past to fall for Bills moves in spring.

Give specific examples since 1970 of teams that deliberately tanked to get specific players -- and that this "plan" actually resulted in building a successful franchise. I can't think of one. Yes, Indy won the Andrew Luck lottery by being terrible in 2011 but they had been expecting Peyton to play at least some time in 2011, and they didn't deliberately dismantle the team to insure they had the worst record possible. That team was built specifically to rely on a dynamic QB -- which Luck was before he was injured -- which is how Indy continued to put up decent records (along with playing in the AFCS when it was about the worst its ever been). Moreover, the FO that fielded the team that earned Indy the 2012 #1 pick got bounced after the 2011 season IIRC.

Sorry, dude, but it's NOT the media's job to be a cheerleader for any sports franchise, although in the Buffalo market, some media outlets have embraced cheerleading and dispensed with honesty. The incompetence of the Bills organization in this century is what has made many fans and media commentators into skeptics. The reality is that the Bills have only had 3 winning seasons -- 2004, 2014, and 2017 -- and 13 losing seasons in the past 19. They have not won 10 or more games in a single season since they went 11-5 in 1999. They have only made the playoffs once since 1999, too, and they have not won a playoff game since 1995 (23 seasons). You can put as much lipstick as you want on that pig but it doesn't make it any prettier. As for "ending" the drought, while that's technically true -- and I'm happy for the players like Kyle Williams and Eric Wood who had an opportunity to play in a playoff game at least once in their careers -- there's no indication that the Bills are any closer to building a team that makes the playoffs more than once every twenty years than they were when they went 9-7 in 2004 or 2014. The reality is that they snuck into the playoffs by winning an OT game in a snowstorm and getting lucky when Andy Dalton made a miracle play on 4th down, and, true to form, they then returned to their losing ways in 2018. At present, all Bills fans have is hope that maybe this Bills will be different from its predecessors, but we've been down this road again and again -- including drafting QBs in the first round and making what look like quality FA signings on paper -- over the last quarter century. You can buy into the latest hype from OBD and tell yourself things are looking up if you want, but knock off the whining about the media and other fans being skeptical.

I simply don't believe the Fins -- or any NFL team -- intends to tank. First of all, it's not in the DNA of NFLers to deliberately lose because they've been raised and trained to be competitive all their lives. If they didn't try their best to be the best at football, they wouldn't last in the NFL. More importantly, there is no guarantee that a collegiate underclassman who looks great comes back and plays just as well or better the next year -- or stays healthy. Even if an underclass star does that doesn't mean that he'll make a good NFL player. Too many supposedly "can't miss" college players, especially QBs, have crashed and burned in the pros. I don't think the Titans would have made the playoffs even if Mariota had stayed healthy. He's simply not a very good QB. He's not any better than Tannehill -- neither can make the clutch plays when games -- or seasons -- are on the line.

I have never been a fan of PFF and their rating of OLers. However PFF compute their "rank" numbers, they consistently seem to discount blatantly bad plays like whiffs while penalizing OLers who struggle to make up for their linemates' poor play. It seems that their film "experts" watch and rate the play of each OLer totally out of context to the entire play, so they don't catch the bad plays by 1 OLer that forces his linemate to try to make up for his failure -- and may fail. Maybe they just don't know squat about OL play. Whatever, their ranking system seems pretty meaningless. The measure of any unit is how effective it is in protecting the QB and opening holes for the running game, no matter what kind of stats individuals produce. An OL which supposedly has 4 of 5 members "average" or "above average" should have protected the QBs better and opened more holes for the RBs than the 2018 Bills OL did. They were easily the most ineffective OL the Bills have fielded since about 2009 or 2010. The real "proof of the pudding" about whether this OL is an improvement over 2018's version will be revealed only during the regular season by how well they protect Allen and open holes for the RBs. Until then, I'll reserve judgement on the OL -- and on the success or failure of the 2019 FA signings.

And probably get a ring for his trouble!!!!

I didn't say it made sense because it really doesn't for Tennessee unless they intend to send Mariota packing and draft a QB. Bringing in a former starting QB to a team that already has a starting QB usually opens a can of worms. As for Miami, how is their situation significantly different from the Bills' situation in 2018 when they traded Taylor? What QBs did they have on their roster? Nathan Peterman and ????

Sad but true. The reality is that both Tannehill and Mariota have turned out to be the absolutely worst kind of QB to draft in the first round: just good enough to make a team give keep him -- even give him a new big long-term contract -- but not good enough to win with. At least with Fitzpatrick and Taylor, the Bills didn't have to invest long term. If Allen is going to fail, I hope he proves he can't get the job done quickly and noticeably like Losman and Manuel rather than look "just good enough" to tempt the Bills to keep him. Both Miami and Tennessee wasted a lot of time and talent hoping that these two guys would "develop" but they never did. Only 3 or 4 years? Predictions of Brady's slow but imminent decline probably started a decade ago, at least among some Bills fans. 2019 will be his 20th season, and except for his rookie season in 2000, his first starting season in 2001 when he replaced the injured Drew Bledsoe, when he tore his knee in the season opener in 2008, and when he was suspended for 4 games in 2016, he's at least started every Patriot game between 2000 and 2018 -- that's 15 complete seasons. He's got to have sold his soul to the devil to amass that kind of record!

My point was just that it's way too early in their careers to judge these kids, and doing so simply is assuming they'll be great because of pre-draft hype. None of them were all that great as rookies. Mayfield looked the best of the first round QBs but even so, there's no guarantee that he'll become a great QB either -- any more than any of the others. Vince Young was the OROY in 2006 and Mark Sanchez led the Jests to the AFC Championship game in 2009. FWIW, the only young QB I can think of who was traded very early in his career and went on to be a great QB was Brett Favre. That doesn't portend well for Rosen if he does get traded.